CNN Breaking News

AP: Appeals court rules Texas had no right to seize hundreds of children from polygamous sect.

28 Responses to “CNN Breaking News”

  1. john says:

    This is probably not the case that family-rights folks would have liked to see hit the supreme court… do you think this will get that far?

  2. David K. says:

    Yeah who cares if girls are being married off to men at age 13 and pregnant before 16, no problem there…

  3. Marty West says:

    I agree with David K.

    It’s completely normal and healthy for a cult to have a bed next to the altar so the husbands can bone their 14 year old wives.

  4. Derek says:

    A little Due Process would be nice. If you read the DCS Affidavit, you’d wonder how the court had authority to take all the children from all the parents. Just because one family is doing something wrong (unproven, btw), that does not mean the rest of the community is. You need to prove it first.

  5. dcl says:

    They were in a religious cult. Child abuse case proven.

  6. john says:

    yes there was child abuse. The problem, as Derek highlighted, is due process. Too many states are getting grab happy with any allegation.

    There is no good solution to child abuse, but this is a lurking issue in many states. I am involved in the foster care system in Washington state, there are many kids who get pulled for 72 hours for something the kid totally made up. That’s not right.

  7. James Of Tucson says:

    This is going to be bad for the State of Texas.

    A court just ruled that the State had no right to remove children, or to incarcerate adults.

    The peace officers involved may have immunity from prosecution, but MANY people with no such immunity were involved in the raids. And a Texas judge has essentially just set them up for criminal charges of mass kidnapping. It’s a case with no precedent. The victims have very good lawyers. The State is admitting fault. This could end up bankrupting the State of Texas.

  8. Angrier and Angrier says:

    A crazy woman from Colorado called in the initial allegation that prompted the raid. The woman’s initial report was false, so does that mean the whole deal gets thrown out the door?

  9. john says:

    Angrier, I believe that lawbreakers should be punished.

    If the cops broke the law they should be punished. If the mormons broke the law they should be punished. If both sides (as seems to be the case) broke the law, they should both be punished.

    The sect should not get a pass just because protocol wasn’t followed. The Gov’t should not get a pass just because they found a heap of dirty laundry. Hopefully this case ends with jail time for those who deserve it, and better processes going forward. No amount of money changing hands solves anything for the rest of us.

  10. Angrier and Angrier says:

    I’m not arguing with you. I’m just trying to figure out why the court decision came down the way it did.

  11. john says:

    I don’t know why, I’m just hoping this issue gets some legal clarity. From my very first post I haven’t been arguing any “side”… just arguing against the ambiguity that exists now.

  12. john says:

    I guess my post at 2:39 may sound like I’m on the side of the Mormon sect. I’m definitely not defending them. On this topic, the government has, as usual, annexed all the unclaimed legal power it could reach. It’s time to examine that state of affairs.

  13. Sandy Underpants says:

    I’m surprised to see the level headed posters on this board immediately assume that the Morons are guilty. Basically we the people know nothing except what the authorities have told us, and now as it turns out the authorities were in the wrong on everything they did, so how trustworthy is what they have said.

    Sure the Morons look weird and whatever, but the laws of America rule, a woman can marry at 13 with the consent of her parents, and there’s nothing you can do to say otherwise if there in fact are 13 year olds pregnant and married to 90 year olds. This cult isn’t based on sex, it’s based on faith in god and jesus and the multiple wives is a part of the foundation of the Mormon religion.

    Kids getting porked by old men is sensational and that’s what has gotten the press, but Mary was 13 when she got knocked up by god, I think some people are forgetting that.

    Bottomline, rule of law, the authorities are found to be in the wrong and the sect members, until proven otherwise, are not guilty of any wrongdoing.

  14. Becky says:

    Sandy, I think the marrying age is 16 in Texas. The age of consent is also 16. Hence, when you have a pregnant 13 year old, you have a crime.

  15. David K. says:

    Isn’t polygamy illegal allready Sandy? These people have allready broken the law. These people are no more Mormon than the Branch Davidians were Christian. The Mormon’s I have talked to are sickened and appauled by what these people are doing to these children.

  16. Sandy Underpants says:

    If a parent consents to their ‘child’ marrying under the age of 16, they may in fact do so under the law. I don’t make the laws.

    Furthermore, we don’t know that polygamy was even going on, or if there were in fact pregnant 13 year olds at all. All we know is what we’ve been told by authorities. And so far there hasn’t been any pregnant 13 year olds, or 13 year old moms. So that just may a load of crap too.

    Polygamy is necessary in the Mormon religion and it is the foundation of the Mormon religion (which is more of a cult than any other mainstream religion in this country). Doesn’t take much research to know that anyone that believes the basic tenets of Mormonism is a complete fool.

  17. kcatnd says:

    Isn’t polygamy illegal allready Sandy?

    The FLDS members may be practicing a form of polygamy in the general sense, but it’s not true polygamy, legally, if none of the marriages is recognized by law. It’s no different than a man sleeping around with different women outside the compound.

    However, sex with a minor is illegal the last time I checked. I don’t think you can make any huge claim about the legality of their supposed polygamy, though.

  18. kcatnd says:

    Polygamy is necessary in the Mormon religion and it is the foundation of the Mormon religion

    False. In the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saint religion, possibly true. Polygamy was allowed in the early LDS church, but done away with by supposed revelation in order for Utah to become a state.

    Seriously, just Google this stuff…there are nuances to all of this, you know. Mainstream Mormons shouldn’t be lumped in with FLDS, just a KKK members shouldn’t be lumped together with mainstream Protestants, regardless of what we think about Mormonism’s veracity.

  19. Alasdair says:

    I have been keeping quiet, wondering when “Separation of Church and State” was going to kick in …

    Something didn’t ‘feel’ right about every one of the kids being taken from their respective parents and put into the ChildCare system … that hasd more of the ‘feel’ of someone expanding their bureaucratic empire than good social work …

    The equivalently valid logic to the “All Mormons are polygamists cuz they *have* to be”, a Roman Catholic true believer who takes and swallows the Host is practicing ritual cannibalism, given the Catholic belief that the Miracle of Transubstantiaion is a literal Miracle …

    A little out there for most of us, but not something I want to see prosecuted …

    And, as more than one person has stated, with parental consent, kids can get married before they have arrived at the Age of Consent … and, again as far as I know, within a marriage, the age part doesn’t matter … perhaps the act of marriage emancipates the minor ?

    So – if any of the 13 year olds were legally married to just one person, then my understanding of the laws is that age of consent no longer applies within that marriage

    Still creepy, like ritual cannibalism … but not illegal …

  20. Sandy Underpants says:

    US Polygamy laws came to be BECAUSE of Mormonism. How much more directly connected can you be? And the proper practicing of Mormonism, which is a religion that is only 100 years old, unlike Judaism at 2500+ years and Christianity at 2000 years old, so comparing the early church to early mormonism is a bit (totally) unfair.

    I’m not a mormon-hater or for that matter against polygamy, I’m just stating the facts and implications. One very important part of Mormonism is for a man to have as many children as he can, and the most efficient way to accomplish this is to have more than one wife.

    Texas Marriage Law is as follows:

    If you are 14 to 17 years of age, you will need to show your birth certificate or some license, certificate or document issued by this state or another state, the U.S. or a foreign government.(Drivers license, military ID, passport or baptismal).

    Both parties must be 18 years or older,(14-17 requires parental consent).

    http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/teen_marriage_laws/index.shtml

    The government has a real tough case to make, especially when this cult has been so isolated that they may not even have filed birth certificates on anyone under the age of 25 born on the compound.

    And about the Branch Davidians, that tragedy completely proved the irrelevance of the 2nd Amendment. Bear arms to protect yourself against a government that will burn you alive for doing so.

  21. WizKid says:

    “And the proper practicing of Mormonism, which is a religion that is only 100 years old, unlike Judaism at 2500+ years and Christianity at 2000 years old, so comparing the early church to early Mormonism is a bit (totally) unfair.”(Sandy Underpants)

    Firstly, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints(Mormon church) was officially organized April 6th 1830. For all you non-math whizzes that would make it 178 years old, quite a bit closer to 200 years then the 100 years stated above.

    Secondly, you seem to be confused about the argument you’re trying to make. Comparing a relatively new religion (100 years) to two older ones (2000-2500+ years)then saying “comparing the early church to early Mormonism is a bit (totally) unfair” is a bit confusing as you go from saying new-old to new-new. You might want to clarify your point…

    “One very important part of Mormonism is for a man to have as many children as he can”(Sandy Underpants)

    Really??????

    I must have slept through that part of Sacrament Meeting, every time such an “important” doctrine came up. [please read as sarcasm]

    “US Polygamy laws came to be BECAUSE of Mormonism” (Sandy Underpants)

    So that would mean that there were absolutely no polygamy laws on the books before 1830? I’m not a legal scholar(yet) so you could be right, but I’d like some back-up/ research on that point. Furthermore, if you’re right how does that jive with the separation of church and state?

  22. teresa says:

    Sandy – Texas law allows marriage for minors with parental consent. Unfortunately, most of those girls weren’t legally married. This sect’s spiritual marriages don’t count. The law doesn’t read “an adult male may have sex with a girl with parental consent.”

    Around the time of the raid, I read that Texas changed their law because this group had moved into Texas.

  23. Sandy Underpants says:

    Okay, so Mormonism is only 10 times younger than Christianity and 15 times younger than Judaism.

    It’s unfair to compare early mormonism to early christianity because you’re comparing 1800 years ago to 100 years ago. Mormonism and their prevalent practice of polygamy was rebuked only a few generations ago, whereas early Christian nonsense was millenia ago.

    I don’t know what they teach you in sacrement schoold, but Mormons believe Adam was a god and they believe human men may become gods themselves if they have enough children. Quit trying to play coy, here’s a link exposing your religion (maybe even to you).

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mormonshopetobecomegods.htm

    “Mormonism has been closely associated in public discourse with polygamy. In the 1830s, Joseph Smith, Jr. instituted a form of polygamy referred to as plural marriage, which Brigham Young acknowledged and promoted after the LDS church’s move to the Utah Territory. Upon learning about the practice, political forces in the United States mounted a vigorous campaign to stamp it out. The United States Congress passed laws criminalizing the practice and dissolved polygamous families, disincorporated the LDS Church, and began seizing church property.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

    Teresa, if the law was changed after the men and girls were married it would be a de facto issue and there are no charges that could be filed, because they were married before the law was changed.

  24. Alasdair says:

    Sandy Underpants – why such a snit about Mormons ?

    Islam is also a polygamous religion and still is !

    It allows for up to 4 wives for each believer … check out Sharia Law if you do not believe me …

  25. WizKid says:

    Oh I’m sooooooooooo sorry I don’t know my own religion better then you do.

  26. Becky says:

    Sandy, the mainstream Mormon church rejected polygamy and its members no longer practice it. Fundamentalist Mormons believe in polygamy but don’t tempt the law by entering into spiritual marriages rather than legal ones. Therefore, if there’s a 13-year-old girl on the complex who is not legally married and is pregnant (as is the case with at least one of these girls), then there has been a crime committed.

    Don’t get me wrong here. I think some of the central beliefs of Mormonism are a little unusual, but in a nation founded on religious tolerance, I’m not about to tell Mormons that they can’t believe in their faith, so long as that faith doesn’t promote things like child abuse, which the fundamentalist sect clearly does.

    However, I think the larger issue here is still a complete and utter abuse of government authority. Based on one unsubstantiated phone call that my neighbor could have made, the Texas authorities took away every single child (save nursing infants) in the compound from their parents. Common sense could tell you that at least one set of those parents was not abusing their children, unless you subscribe to dcl’s view that participating in a cult is de facto child abuse.

  27. Sandy Underpants says:

    Alasdair, save it for the islam thread.

    Wizkid, don’t feel bad, I already knew you were an idiot when you said you were a mormon.

    Becky, people can practice their religion freely in this country and I’m not stopping them. I could call any hardcore believer an idiot based on their religious beliefs because they are all rooted in fantasy, but in this great country you are allowed to believe in fairy-tales and imaginary friends, even worship them.

    …And thank god for that.

  28. David K. says:

    Becky, people can practice their religion freely in this country and I’m not stopping them. I could call any hardcore believer an idiot based on their religious beliefs because they are all rooted in fantasy, but in this great country you are allowed to believe in fairy-tales and imaginary friends, even worship them.

    …And thank god for that.

    Well damn, aren’t we glad we have Sandy to tell us what is real and what isn’t? Of course given your ridiculous conspiratorial and over the top rantings, compared to the eminently more sane behavior exhibited by my many friends of various religious persuasions, I think its obvious who the real idiot is. Stand up and take a bow Sandy, you win the booby prize!