Just awful. Huckabee’s Merry-Chirstmas-whether-you-believe-in-Jesus-or-not makes my stomach churn. I don’t know if I’m getting sick right now because (a) Huckabee doesn’t even mention that there are some people in the country who might not celebrate Christmas, (b) the message is sponsored by his campaign, and since Huckabee has taken public funds for his campaign, public dollars went to fund this ad, (c) the only thing Huckabee has going for him right now is his Jesus-invocation, so he thinks that this will make him more popular, (d) he somehow thinks that this is better than all of the other televeision campaign ads because he’s saying “Merry Christmas,” or (e) the only thing that “really matters” in December according to his ad is celebrating the birth of Christ.
… And now you all can tell me how wrong Jew-boy JLR is.
I am not a big Huckabee supporter right now, but I don’t see anything wrong with doing this. People should not be ashamed to be religious and political. It is not a law “respecting an establishment of religion” for the President or any lawmaker to be happily and avowedly religious. get over it people.
See also - U.S. Const. Art. VI.
Non-religion is a true faith too,
so stop pretending you’re secular pure,
ultimate belief if ultimate belief,
whether worshipping God or material things.
What would you do, if tomorrow morn,
you awoke to the reality that your thoughts were open to scorn,
simply because you had no proof,
whether they false or whether they true.
And you couldn’t be happy because of your belief,
because any time you mentioned it,
you offended peeps,
We here at Irish-Trojan know that would suck,
so stop ripping on Mick bee-a-Huck.
(I am not Joe Loy, but I approve of this message).
oops, I didn’t see that this was posted by someone of the Jewish persuasion. So my assumption about the poster being non-religious was off the mark. I guess I assumed I was responding to someone from the Golden Compass thread last week. Well, I still think it was a good poem.
PS - get over it, religious and non-religious and easily offended and OMG we’ve been a bazillion % Christian for 230 years and no one has been forced by law to become Christian yet, alike.
JRL, I likewise am disgusted. Mr. Goldberg we should talk. I am interested in coordinating our efforts…perhaps we could form, “The Jewish & Christian Alliance for the Celebration of Christmas, Hanukah, and Kwanza†(or for short the JCACCHK). I believe Senator Lieberman would be an ideal choice to head the JCACCHK.
JLR, if (a) you’re a registered Republican voter (b) living in Iowa, who (c) intends to attend the Iowa caucus and (d) were previously supporting Huckabee, genuinely undecided, or gave only soft support to a candidate, then yeah, I could see why it would turn you off. But if you’re not in all four of those categories, then you’re not in the applicable demographic, and it’s entirely irrelevant to you.
Huckabee’s trying to sell himself to a certain demographic. If you’re not in it, you shouldn’t be offended, any more so than a bra advertisement might offend you because you’re not a woman, or a diaper advertisement might offend you because you’re not a baby.
Let’s get something straight. I didn’t say I was offended. Rather, I’m more disgusted that this is what politicking has come to.
I think it’s nice that Huckabee wants to wish the Christians of America a Merry Christmas. I wish them a Merry Christmas, too. Far be it from me to tell others how they should worship, etc., etc.
But in spite of what Derek is saying, this is not a way to get broad-reaching appeal across the country. Huckabee is trying to invoke the name of Christ for the sake of vote pandering. True, I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. However, for Huckabee to invoke the name of his Messiah as a politicking ploy just disgusts me.
If the only important thing that happened in December was the birth of Jesus, then I guess New Year’s Eve, Pearl Harbor Day, and Baby Loy’s due date can just go right out the window.
I am not 4-7, but I agree that it’s a Prettygood poem :). Vaguely Yeatsian, until it comes to the concluding stanza and unexpectedly goes Joyceular like a sudden Detonation. Very dramatic :>.
Now for My part I’d ask,
What would you do, if tomorrow morn,
you found yer arse Slouching toward Des Moines to be born
The birth of Jesus didn’t happen in December. What we know to be “Christmas” is just the Christian way of perverting ancient pagan rituals. Do your research.
ok, jlr. that’s fair. If Huckabee is just trying to score points (which is a fair, but not certain, possibility), then that is less than praiseworthy. Still, he at lest manufactures what looks like sincerity.
Huckabee totally ripped off the take a break from politics Christmas message from Ron Paul, much like he stole the idea of eliminating the IRS from Paul.
In the words of Chris Hitchens:
“I will on no account vote for a smirking hick like Mike Huckabee, who is an unusually stupid primate but who does not have the elementary intelligence to recognize the fact that this is what he is.”
At this stage in the campaign, I don’t believe candidates are using Federal matching funds. I don’t think that happens until you actually get the nomination.
As for Huckabee’s message, I think it is funny they (supposedly) went the route of the subliminal cross in the background while the guy is actually saying “Let’s celebrate the birth of Christ.” Why be subliminal about it when he just lays it on the line?
” But if you’re not in all four of those categories, then you’re not in the applicable demographic, and it’s entirely irrelevant to you.”
Derek: rubbish. JLR is not complaining that it is an ineffective Tactic for winning over his Vote in the Davenport Republican caucus. Essentially, and disgustedly, he is documenting the Foolishness-in-Principle of explicitly wishing non-Christians a Happy Christ’s Birthday. Relatedly, he is wary ~ and with good reason ~ of a Movement that seeks vast political Power on so specifically Sectarian a basis as does Pastor Huck’s. / The proposition that I must belong to the Applicable Demographic in order for somebody’s targeted Campaign Pitch to be at all Relevant to me, is absurd.
“…(b) the message is sponsored by his campaign, and since Huckabee has taken public funds for his campaign, public dollars went to fund this ad,…”
True, JLR; but that particular point gets us Nowhere. You’re in favor of public campaign financing, aren’t you? (Aren’t you??) Expanded editions thereof, even? Get the private-donor fatcat BigBucks corruption out of politics & so forth? Admittedly I’m Assuming here; but even if you’re Not for all that good stuff :), as long as we Have a public subsidy we can’t feasibly start Censoring the Content of the Speech which it Funds. Down that particular slope, slips the whole Ball of wax :>. Can you imagine the size & power of the AdContent Enforcement bureaucracy? (Hm! Maybe not such a bad idea after all! :)
I applied for a State Pension, was found Eligible, and thus receive the dole ;> monthly. Now, mues is die erste zacht ;] but since mine Originates from The Taxpayers’ Dime, am I to be Banned from depositing some of it in the collection basket over at Saint Thomas the Apostle of a Sunday? (Not that I often Do, you understand, Christmas & Easter sort of thing, y’know, no wait maybe you Don’t; well just look at it as a Thought Experiment, OK? :)
But that aside, please know that at least One of the goyim shares in your Disgust. ;> Here’s hoping the Republican voters, having enjoyed their brief Glimpse of the Kingdom Come, reflect further on the exigencies of This world and send the Pastor Packing back to the Pulpit where he Does belong.
jlr, I am saddened that you found anything in BRWs comment worthy of praise.
That comment was completely inane and represents a lack of any semblance of an adult understanding of Christian belief. The celebration of the birth of Christ is not a ritualistic, calendar-dependant, alignment-of-the-moon-and-stars religious event. The Catholic Church, for example, has a multitude of feast days and holy days memorializing events in faith-related history, some having a tight historical connection to the overlap between the liturgical and secular calendar, others without.
BRW, that you find something significant (i.e. discrediting) in the overlap of Christmas with prior pagan winter holidays is absolutely outstanding. I hate to be mean, but are you home sick from school today ? I cannot believe that you would proffer your “research” as anything but a laughable ground to attempt to invalidate Christmas. But whatev. Maybe you’re just a spammer.
There is something to what BRW says. For instance, it always gets me when the War on Christmas crowd gets angry about a Christmas tree being removed from the public square. The Christmas tree has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. It’s a pagan symbol adopted by us for Christian purposes. If anyone should be pissed off, it should be the pagans.
It all reminds me of the famous quote “If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.” Both the quote and the above examples are just misunderstandings of the origins of religious artifacts.
4-7, get your head out of your ass. I was responding the JLR’s (tongue-in-cheek) comment about the birth of Christ being in December, which holy leaders themselves will agree is inaccurate.
As for those other “feast” and “holy” days you mentioned, well, the majority of those are perversions of earlier Pagan rituals as well. Don’t even get me started on Easter.
Look, I’m sure you hate to be mean (as most Christians I’ve met claim), but seriously, this is not an attack on Christianity. It’s just facts. Read your history books.
And go get a Happy Meal - it might make you feel a little better.
The Christmas tree has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. It’s a pagan symbol adopted by us for Christian purposes.
Those sentences are incongruent. For instance, one could claim, “Writing has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. It’s a pagan form of recordkeeping adopted by us for Christian purposes.” The two do not relate to one another; in fact, the latter contradicts the former.
I readily admit that the Christmas Tree was originally a pagan symbol. Its use as a Christian symbol, however, has effectively “sanctified” it, if you will, to give it a primarily Christian meaning. (E.g., the myths of Boniface and Luther surround it, the symbolism it represents, etc.). Furthermore, a Christian could plausibly argue that all things in Creation (a) have an element of truth about them, such that even the pagans approached some elemement of Truth before Christians further explained the wholeness of Truth in light of Christ’s birth, and (b) reflect the glory of God irrespective of whether a pagan has attached some secular meaning to it first.
if huckabee somehow wins the nomination the republican party will not have a prayer at winning the white house. im pretty confident bloomberg will see an oppurtunity and run himself if such a crazy and weak candidate won the nomination. id give bloomberg a better chance at winning than huckabee, but the more likely result is a split of votes and an easy win for the democrats.
If one takes a piece of shit, and calls that piece of shit a symbol of Christmas. The fact remains: it still came out of someone’s ass.
I actually agree with the point somewhat, though. One can’t undermine the truth of the Christian religion by saying that all of its holy days were originally pagan. This account of the genesis of the holy days cannot say anything about whether the religion is true or false. This is because something can be true, but arrived at through faulty means. Suppose I see some graffiti on a bathroom stall that says Elvis is dead. I may believe it on the sole ground of the graffiti (not a very good ground), yet my belief would be true.
Derek, I think you’re making a stupid analogy. Bras and baby products aren’t trying to become the most powerful leaders in the entire world. Moreover, I’ve never seen a bra ad targeted at Jews or Christians or atheists.
Fact is, I think an ad like this demonstrates why I could never vote for someone like Huckabee. This is NOT a Christian country. We’re a plurality and willfully ignoring our diversity for the sake of political pandering is pathetic, desperate and despicable.
Moreover, it plays to Huckabee’s strengths in an entirely obvious fashion. He’s rallying the religious right with his proselytizing while distracting from the fact that he’s about as conservative as Ralph Nader and as qualified as Dennis Kucinich.
We are a predominantly Christian country founded by Christians who believed that government should not favor any one religion. Unfortunately most Right Wing Wackos believe that because George Washington went to church and chose to say “So help me God” during his inauguration that the Founding Fathers wanted America to be a Theocracy the way many European countries tried to be before the Age of Enlightenment.
A and A, are we predominately Christian? Cuz if I looked at something like church attendance or the like, I’d say we’re predominately agnostic or maybe predominately lazy.
I think a good argument could be made for the claim that founding fathers were proto-atheists. First, the founding fathers were Deists. Second, atheism wasn’t a viable philosophy in their day. Third, the same reasons why atheists are atheists today was the reason why deists were deists back then, namely both groups don’t buy the orthodoxy. I’m just saying that if atheism were a viable option back then, it’s very possible that our country would have been founded by atheists. But there is no possibility that it would have been founded by orthodox Christians.
First, I beg to differ. Politics is just another form of advertising. “Leader of the world” is just another type of job title. The best advertisers are those who make it seem like it’s not just an average sales job but that they legitimately have convictions. (Some, like Ron Paul, buck this stereotype and actually do have convictions, not megalomania, driving them.) Otherwise, it’s just another way for some Harvard lawyers or Harvard businessmen or Yale lawyers to show who can climb the ladder.
Second, I have no problem with targeted advertising. When the Democrats advertise that they want to tax the rich, they’re not recognizing the pluralism of monetary levels. When the Republicans want to oppose legal protection of unions, they’re not recognizing the pluralism of job types. Yeah, I guess we can say that religion is “different,” but really, every single candidate has made his own religious beliefs an issue in some respect. The fact that Huckabee’s trying to pander to a narrow group of religious voters is no more “pathetic, desperate and despicable” than pandering to a narrow income class or a narrow job type.
(I’m not quite sure how far I’m willing to go with this, but I’m willing to make the hyperbole on the second point in a blog post. I think we could argue that in some ways religion is “different,” but, Becky, I would probably not find so for the same reasons as you.)
JLR - I agree that Huckabee’s ad is inappropriate. I think it’s tacky and wrongheaded, and will come back to bite him later in the campaign. I also think his eye looks creepy. That said, as long as the ad isn’t illegal, he can do whatever he wants. And we can keep complaining about it, or join another campaign, or shut off the TV and open a book. :)
Derek - seriously, you’re pulling the “you don’t belong to X group, so you’re not allowed to have an opinion” card? That argument is so specious… why should your opinion be more valid simply because JLR doesn’t meet your four critera? If he feels offended, he feels offended. Leave it alone.
You can certainly make the argument (although I disagree) that without regular attendance at worship services that there is no religious affiliation, but how do you define regular? And does going to a worship service automatically equate with belief? I don’t think that going and hearing something necessarily means that you agree with it.
And finally, the last time I checked, church attendance wasn’t required by the relevant chapters of Exodus. I frequently think that Emily Dickinson probably had it right (but hey, that’s just my opinion):
“Some keep the Sabbath going to Church –
I keep it, staying at Home –
With a Bobolink for a Chorister –
And an Orchard, for a Dome –Some keep the Sabbath in Surplice –
What the hell are you talking about? Mary Magdalene tripped over the Easter bunny on the way to the tomb Sunday morning, which caused her to fall and smash the cute painted eggs the risen Jesus had left for her. It’s right there in Mark. Dumbass.
I never heard “whether you believe in Jesus or not…” or any such nonsense. Try being a little more sensitive so that you can live offended all the time.
You are reading into something that’s not there. The guy is wishing you a happy holiday season…
Oh wait, Drudge linked to a story quoting Catholic League president Bill Donahue saying that Huckabee’s ad contained a white bookcase in the background that was a subliminal message . . . so it must be true ;-)
“I guess that subliminal cross in the background is just a bookcase then?”
That comment was tongue-in-cheek about the ridiculousness of this whole thing. For the record, I neither affirm nor deny the “subliminal-cross-in-bookcase” theory.
DUP, wishing someone a happy holiday season is cateogorically different from reminding people that December is a month to celebrate the birth of Christ. If Joe Lieberman was campaigning and he put out an ad reminding us that December (or er, late November sometimes) is a month to remember what really matters–the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem–you’d probably be like, WTF? For the non-religious, Jews, Muslims, atheists etc., December is most certainly NOT about celebrating the birth of Christ.
If Huckabee was like, “dude, campaigning blows and I just wanna wish y’all a Merry Christmas” then I wouldn’t be irked. But he didn’t say that.
To me, individual religious preferences are a private matter and I prefer when people keep their private out of my public.
And Huckabee is still a crappy candidate, his religious preferences notwithstanding.
Fair enough. I honestly couldn’t tell that you were being tongue-in-cheek, especially since A&A also believes “they (supposedly) went the route of the subliminal cross in the background.”
I respect your opinion, but I am just not that sensitive. I don’t get offended easily, and I don’t care what anyone believes. He made a commercial wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, and that’s all I see. If Lieberman put out an ad like that, I wouldn’t care because it’s important to him — I guess I just “roll with it.”
Saying all that, I do understand how someone would be offended, but at the same time, I don’t — because of my “easy going-ness.”
Good luck with your soon to happen birth!
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December 18th, 2007 at 9:49:47 am
I am not a big Huckabee supporter right now, but I don’t see anything wrong with doing this. People should not be ashamed to be religious and political. It is not a law “respecting an establishment of religion” for the President or any lawmaker to be happily and avowedly religious. get over it people.
See also - U.S. Const. Art. VI.
Non-religion is a true faith too,
so stop pretending you’re secular pure,
ultimate belief if ultimate belief,
whether worshipping God or material things.
What would you do, if tomorrow morn,
you awoke to the reality that your thoughts were open to scorn,
simply because you had no proof,
whether they false or whether they true.
And you couldn’t be happy because of your belief,
because any time you mentioned it,
you offended peeps,
We here at Irish-Trojan know that would suck,
so stop ripping on Mick bee-a-Huck.
(I am not Joe Loy, but I approve of this message).
December 18th, 2007 at 9:50:01 am
Merry Christmas JLR!
December 18th, 2007 at 9:50:51 am
I meant Mike Bee-a-Huck, of Course.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:53:32 am
Wow. He may actually pull this off. That was nothing short of a brilliant ad.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:54:41 am
oops, I didn’t see that this was posted by someone of the Jewish persuasion. So my assumption about the poster being non-religious was off the mark. I guess I assumed I was responding to someone from the Golden Compass thread last week. Well, I still think it was a good poem.
PS - get over it, religious and non-religious and easily offended and OMG we’ve been a bazillion % Christian for 230 years and no one has been forced by law to become Christian yet, alike.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:57:13 am
PSS - Whatever our differences, this year let’s celebrate the true meaning of DeTHemberween.
http://www.homestarrunner.com/dethemberween.html
December 18th, 2007 at 9:58:18 am
JRL, I likewise am disgusted. Mr. Goldberg we should talk. I am interested in coordinating our efforts…perhaps we could form, “The Jewish & Christian Alliance for the Celebration of Christmas, Hanukah, and Kwanza†(or for short the JCACCHK). I believe Senator Lieberman would be an ideal choice to head the JCACCHK.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:05:50 am
JLR, if (a) you’re a registered Republican voter (b) living in Iowa, who (c) intends to attend the Iowa caucus and (d) were previously supporting Huckabee, genuinely undecided, or gave only soft support to a candidate, then yeah, I could see why it would turn you off. But if you’re not in all four of those categories, then you’re not in the applicable demographic, and it’s entirely irrelevant to you.
Huckabee’s trying to sell himself to a certain demographic. If you’re not in it, you shouldn’t be offended, any more so than a bra advertisement might offend you because you’re not a woman, or a diaper advertisement might offend you because you’re not a baby.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:28:48 am
Oh, also, here’s the Christmas message from Ron Paul.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:37:57 am
Let’s get something straight. I didn’t say I was offended. Rather, I’m more disgusted that this is what politicking has come to.
I think it’s nice that Huckabee wants to wish the Christians of America a Merry Christmas. I wish them a Merry Christmas, too. Far be it from me to tell others how they should worship, etc., etc.
But in spite of what Derek is saying, this is not a way to get broad-reaching appeal across the country. Huckabee is trying to invoke the name of Christ for the sake of vote pandering. True, I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. However, for Huckabee to invoke the name of his Messiah as a politicking ploy just disgusts me.
If the only important thing that happened in December was the birth of Jesus, then I guess New Year’s Eve, Pearl Harbor Day, and Baby Loy’s due date can just go right out the window.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:50:44 am
I am not 4-7, but I agree that it’s a Prettygood poem :). Vaguely Yeatsian, until it comes to the concluding stanza and unexpectedly goes Joyceular like a sudden Detonation. Very dramatic :>.
Now for My part I’d ask,
What would you do, if tomorrow morn,
you found yer arse Slouching toward Des Moines to be born
:)
December 18th, 2007 at 10:55:51 am
The birth of Jesus didn’t happen in December. What we know to be “Christmas” is just the Christian way of perverting ancient pagan rituals. Do your research.
http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
December 18th, 2007 at 11:01:31 am
ok, jlr. that’s fair. If Huckabee is just trying to score points (which is a fair, but not certain, possibility), then that is less than praiseworthy. Still, he at lest manufactures what looks like sincerity.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:19:31 am
Huckabee totally ripped off the take a break from politics Christmas message from Ron Paul, much like he stole the idea of eliminating the IRS from Paul.
In the words of Chris Hitchens:
“I will on no account vote for a smirking hick like Mike Huckabee, who is an unusually stupid primate but who does not have the elementary intelligence to recognize the fact that this is what he is.”
December 18th, 2007 at 11:21:46 am
Thank you, BRW. As a non-Christian, I didn’t think it would be proper for me to make that argument. I’m glad someone else made it for me.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:49:30 am
At this stage in the campaign, I don’t believe candidates are using Federal matching funds. I don’t think that happens until you actually get the nomination.
As for Huckabee’s message, I think it is funny they (supposedly) went the route of the subliminal cross in the background while the guy is actually saying “Let’s celebrate the birth of Christ.” Why be subliminal about it when he just lays it on the line?
December 18th, 2007 at 11:49:51 am
” But if you’re not in all four of those categories, then you’re not in the applicable demographic, and it’s entirely irrelevant to you.”
Derek: rubbish. JLR is not complaining that it is an ineffective Tactic for winning over his Vote in the Davenport Republican caucus. Essentially, and disgustedly, he is documenting the Foolishness-in-Principle of explicitly wishing non-Christians a Happy Christ’s Birthday. Relatedly, he is wary ~ and with good reason ~ of a Movement that seeks vast political Power on so specifically Sectarian a basis as does Pastor Huck’s. / The proposition that I must belong to the Applicable Demographic in order for somebody’s targeted Campaign Pitch to be at all Relevant to me, is absurd.
“…(b) the message is sponsored by his campaign, and since Huckabee has taken public funds for his campaign, public dollars went to fund this ad,…”
True, JLR; but that particular point gets us Nowhere. You’re in favor of public campaign financing, aren’t you? (Aren’t you??) Expanded editions thereof, even? Get the private-donor fatcat BigBucks corruption out of politics & so forth? Admittedly I’m Assuming here; but even if you’re Not for all that good stuff :), as long as we Have a public subsidy we can’t feasibly start Censoring the Content of the Speech which it Funds. Down that particular slope, slips the whole Ball of wax :>. Can you imagine the size & power of the AdContent Enforcement bureaucracy? (Hm! Maybe not such a bad idea after all! :)
I applied for a State Pension, was found Eligible, and thus receive the dole ;> monthly. Now, mues is die erste zacht ;] but since mine Originates from The Taxpayers’ Dime, am I to be Banned from depositing some of it in the collection basket over at Saint Thomas the Apostle of a Sunday? (Not that I often Do, you understand, Christmas & Easter sort of thing, y’know, no wait maybe you Don’t; well just look at it as a Thought Experiment, OK? :)
But that aside, please know that at least One of the goyim shares in your Disgust. ;> Here’s hoping the Republican voters, having enjoyed their brief Glimpse of the Kingdom Come, reflect further on the exigencies of This world and send the Pastor Packing back to the Pulpit where he Does belong.
December 18th, 2007 at 11:57:15 am
If only people started using
“Merrpy Christmakkah!”
December 18th, 2007 at 11:59:50 am
jlr, I am saddened that you found anything in BRWs comment worthy of praise.
That comment was completely inane and represents a lack of any semblance of an adult understanding of Christian belief. The celebration of the birth of Christ is not a ritualistic, calendar-dependant, alignment-of-the-moon-and-stars religious event. The Catholic Church, for example, has a multitude of feast days and holy days memorializing events in faith-related history, some having a tight historical connection to the overlap between the liturgical and secular calendar, others without.
BRW, that you find something significant (i.e. discrediting) in the overlap of Christmas with prior pagan winter holidays is absolutely outstanding. I hate to be mean, but are you home sick from school today ? I cannot believe that you would proffer your “research” as anything but a laughable ground to attempt to invalidate Christmas. But whatev. Maybe you’re just a spammer.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:10:15 pm
There is something to what BRW says. For instance, it always gets me when the War on Christmas crowd gets angry about a Christmas tree being removed from the public square. The Christmas tree has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. It’s a pagan symbol adopted by us for Christian purposes. If anyone should be pissed off, it should be the pagans.
It all reminds me of the famous quote “If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.” Both the quote and the above examples are just misunderstandings of the origins of religious artifacts.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:20:45 pm
4-7, get your head out of your ass. I was responding the JLR’s (tongue-in-cheek) comment about the birth of Christ being in December, which holy leaders themselves will agree is inaccurate.
As for those other “feast” and “holy” days you mentioned, well, the majority of those are perversions of earlier Pagan rituals as well. Don’t even get me started on Easter.
Look, I’m sure you hate to be mean (as most Christians I’ve met claim), but seriously, this is not an attack on Christianity. It’s just facts. Read your history books.
And go get a Happy Meal - it might make you feel a little better.
Merry Kwanzukka.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:24:40 pm
Those sentences are incongruent. For instance, one could claim, “Writing has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. It’s a pagan form of recordkeeping adopted by us for Christian purposes.” The two do not relate to one another; in fact, the latter contradicts the former.
I readily admit that the Christmas Tree was originally a pagan symbol. Its use as a Christian symbol, however, has effectively “sanctified” it, if you will, to give it a primarily Christian meaning. (E.g., the myths of Boniface and Luther surround it, the symbolism it represents, etc.). Furthermore, a Christian could plausibly argue that all things in Creation (a) have an element of truth about them, such that even the pagans approached some elemement of Truth before Christians further explained the wholeness of Truth in light of Christ’s birth, and (b) reflect the glory of God irrespective of whether a pagan has attached some secular meaning to it first.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:40:26 pm
if huckabee somehow wins the nomination the republican party will not have a prayer at winning the white house. im pretty confident bloomberg will see an oppurtunity and run himself if such a crazy and weak candidate won the nomination. id give bloomberg a better chance at winning than huckabee, but the more likely result is a split of votes and an easy win for the democrats.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:49:29 pm
If one takes a piece of shit, and calls that piece of shit a symbol of Christmas. The fact remains: it still came out of someone’s ass.
I actually agree with the point somewhat, though. One can’t undermine the truth of the Christian religion by saying that all of its holy days were originally pagan. This account of the genesis of the holy days cannot say anything about whether the religion is true or false. This is because something can be true, but arrived at through faulty means. Suppose I see some graffiti on a bathroom stall that says Elvis is dead. I may believe it on the sole ground of the graffiti (not a very good ground), yet my belief would be true.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:51:07 pm
Derek, I think you’re making a stupid analogy. Bras and baby products aren’t trying to become the most powerful leaders in the entire world. Moreover, I’ve never seen a bra ad targeted at Jews or Christians or atheists.
Fact is, I think an ad like this demonstrates why I could never vote for someone like Huckabee. This is NOT a Christian country. We’re a plurality and willfully ignoring our diversity for the sake of political pandering is pathetic, desperate and despicable.
Moreover, it plays to Huckabee’s strengths in an entirely obvious fashion. He’s rallying the religious right with his proselytizing while distracting from the fact that he’s about as conservative as Ralph Nader and as qualified as Dennis Kucinich.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:01:38 pm
We are a predominantly Christian country founded by Christians who believed that government should not favor any one religion. Unfortunately most Right Wing Wackos believe that because George Washington went to church and chose to say “So help me God” during his inauguration that the Founding Fathers wanted America to be a Theocracy the way many European countries tried to be before the Age of Enlightenment.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:09:35 pm
A and A, are we predominately Christian? Cuz if I looked at something like church attendance or the like, I’d say we’re predominately agnostic or maybe predominately lazy.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:10:53 pm
I think a good argument could be made for the claim that founding fathers were proto-atheists. First, the founding fathers were Deists. Second, atheism wasn’t a viable philosophy in their day. Third, the same reasons why atheists are atheists today was the reason why deists were deists back then, namely both groups don’t buy the orthodoxy. I’m just saying that if atheism were a viable option back then, it’s very possible that our country would have been founded by atheists. But there is no possibility that it would have been founded by orthodox Christians.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:14:34 pm
First, I beg to differ. Politics is just another form of advertising. “Leader of the world” is just another type of job title. The best advertisers are those who make it seem like it’s not just an average sales job but that they legitimately have convictions. (Some, like Ron Paul, buck this stereotype and actually do have convictions, not megalomania, driving them.) Otherwise, it’s just another way for some Harvard lawyers or Harvard businessmen or Yale lawyers to show who can climb the ladder.
Second, I have no problem with targeted advertising. When the Democrats advertise that they want to tax the rich, they’re not recognizing the pluralism of monetary levels. When the Republicans want to oppose legal protection of unions, they’re not recognizing the pluralism of job types. Yeah, I guess we can say that religion is “different,” but really, every single candidate has made his own religious beliefs an issue in some respect. The fact that Huckabee’s trying to pander to a narrow group of religious voters is no more “pathetic, desperate and despicable” than pandering to a narrow income class or a narrow job type.
(I’m not quite sure how far I’m willing to go with this, but I’m willing to make the hyperbole on the second point in a blog post. I think we could argue that in some ways religion is “different,” but, Becky, I would probably not find so for the same reasons as you.)
December 18th, 2007 at 2:08:53 pm
JLR - I agree that Huckabee’s ad is inappropriate. I think it’s tacky and wrongheaded, and will come back to bite him later in the campaign. I also think his eye looks creepy. That said, as long as the ad isn’t illegal, he can do whatever he wants. And we can keep complaining about it, or join another campaign, or shut off the TV and open a book. :)
Derek - seriously, you’re pulling the “you don’t belong to X group, so you’re not allowed to have an opinion” card? That argument is so specious… why should your opinion be more valid simply because JLR doesn’t meet your four critera? If he feels offended, he feels offended. Leave it alone.
Becky - not quite. See: http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_studies/aris.pdf
You can certainly make the argument (although I disagree) that without regular attendance at worship services that there is no religious affiliation, but how do you define regular? And does going to a worship service automatically equate with belief? I don’t think that going and hearing something necessarily means that you agree with it.
And finally, the last time I checked, church attendance wasn’t required by the relevant chapters of Exodus. I frequently think that Emily Dickinson probably had it right (but hey, that’s just my opinion):
“Some keep the Sabbath going to Church –
I keep it, staying at Home –
With a Bobolink for a Chorister –
And an Orchard, for a Dome –Some keep the Sabbath in Surplice –
I just wear my Wings –
And instead of tolling the Bell, for Church,
Our little Sexton — sings.
God preaches, a noted Clergyman –
And the sermon is never long,
So instead of getting to Heaven, at least –
I’m going, all along.”
December 18th, 2007 at 2:58:46 pm
wow. this thread sure took a nose dive while I was at lunch. I think I’ll beg leave and not dignify it further with a response.
December 18th, 2007 at 3:00:55 pm
Don’t even get me started on Easter.
What the hell are you talking about? Mary Magdalene tripped over the Easter bunny on the way to the tomb Sunday morning, which caused her to fall and smash the cute painted eggs the risen Jesus had left for her. It’s right there in Mark. Dumbass.
December 18th, 2007 at 3:36:43 pm
I never heard “whether you believe in Jesus or not…” or any such nonsense. Try being a little more sensitive so that you can live offended all the time.
You are reading into something that’s not there. The guy is wishing you a happy holiday season…
December 18th, 2007 at 3:42:35 pm
I guess that subliminal cross in the background is just a bookcase then?
December 18th, 2007 at 4:23:28 pm
loljesus?
IM IN UR TEEVEE
KRISCHUNIZIN UR SEKULAR NASHUN
December 18th, 2007 at 4:47:14 pm
Leanna says:
And shoes for all… including hobbits.
December 18th, 2007 at 7:15:43 pm
I want to take this Opportunity to Wish A Very Merry Christmas to all the blog readers.
:)
December 18th, 2007 at 9:08:02 pm
LOL andrew. :)
December 18th, 2007 at 11:19:02 pm
I guess that subliminal cross in the background is just a bookcase then?
Are you f*ck*ng kidding me?!
December 18th, 2007 at 11:25:02 pm
Oh wait, Drudge linked to a story quoting Catholic League president Bill Donahue saying that Huckabee’s ad contained a white bookcase in the background that was a subliminal message . . . so it must be true ;-)
December 18th, 2007 at 11:31:40 pm
“so it must be true” should read “so it must be taken seriously.”
December 18th, 2007 at 11:33:14 pm
“I guess that subliminal cross in the background is just a bookcase then?”
That comment was tongue-in-cheek about the ridiculousness of this whole thing. For the record, I neither affirm nor deny the “subliminal-cross-in-bookcase” theory.
December 19th, 2007 at 8:17:59 am
DUP, wishing someone a happy holiday season is cateogorically different from reminding people that December is a month to celebrate the birth of Christ. If Joe Lieberman was campaigning and he put out an ad reminding us that December (or er, late November sometimes) is a month to remember what really matters–the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem–you’d probably be like, WTF? For the non-religious, Jews, Muslims, atheists etc., December is most certainly NOT about celebrating the birth of Christ.
If Huckabee was like, “dude, campaigning blows and I just wanna wish y’all a Merry Christmas” then I wouldn’t be irked. But he didn’t say that.
To me, individual religious preferences are a private matter and I prefer when people keep their private out of my public.
And Huckabee is still a crappy candidate, his religious preferences notwithstanding.
December 19th, 2007 at 9:13:47 am
Condor,
Fair enough. I honestly couldn’t tell that you were being tongue-in-cheek, especially since A&A also believes “they (supposedly) went the route of the subliminal cross in the background.”
December 19th, 2007 at 1:35:31 pm
Becky,
I respect your opinion, but I am just not that sensitive. I don’t get offended easily, and I don’t care what anyone believes. He made a commercial wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, and that’s all I see. If Lieberman put out an ad like that, I wouldn’t care because it’s important to him — I guess I just “roll with it.”
Saying all that, I do understand how someone would be offended, but at the same time, I don’t — because of my “easy going-ness.”
Good luck with your soon to happen birth!