Well, I certainly appreciate Spike Lee’s balanced approach to Kanye West’s “George Bush doesn’t care about black people” comment. It was very even-handed and intellectually honest of him to include several intelligent rebuttals to Kanye’s comment, just like he included various rebuttals to the criticisms of Ray Nagin yesterday.
Oh, wait, you mean he didn’t do that? You mean the only commentary he included came from two “activists” who were more interested in stroking Kanye’s ego than providing any sort of critical analysis of his comment? You mean Spike deliberately left out all commentary from interviewees (like me) who criticized Kanye’s comments, and contended that the government’s failures came from incompetence, not malice? Oh.
After I expressed concerns about Spike’s intentions with the film, his producer Judith Aley assured me that Spike intended to include “a wide range of viewpoints.” Hmm.
I love the woman who said: “They aren’t doing anything for the Katrina victims. For the blacks, anyway.” Yeah, because FEMA has separate databases for white and black victims. Only the whites get hotel rooms!
And from the same woman: “If they wanted us in New Orleans, they wouldn’t have tried to drown us and kill us. I’m not going to go back so they can kill us off.” No rebuttal, no analysis. He just let that comment sit there. Nice.
I also love all the accusations of white people of being racist, followed by statements like “the culture of New Orleans comes from black people.” Because that’s not racist!
I will say, however, that the criticism of Barbara Bush was richly deserved.
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Categories: Hurricane Katrina
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August 22nd, 2006 at 10:16:10 pm
Not sure I agree that Lee is presenting Nagin sympathetically. As someone posted earlier, I have yet to hear someone say something nice about him.
What’s more, the first time we see him, he’s at his swearing in - acting like a clown and making a mockery of the event by restating his name and laughing about it.
If you needed Spike Lee to narrate over that laughable swearing-in scene (”and here you know Nagin is a moron…”) …well…
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:23:01 pm
I’m not saying he’s presenting him sympathetically. I’m saying that he presented him evenhandedly. Yesterday he featured a bunch of people criticizing Nagin, followed by people, perhaps not exactly defending him, but saying things like, “Well, Nagin had a really tough job” and essentially justifying his failures.
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:27:06 pm
An unbiased view of racial issues in a Spike Lee work?
“Brothers and sisters fighting is as natural as a white man’s dialogue in a Spike Lee movie.” — Family Guy
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:31:36 pm
Heh.
As I said in a previous post, I’m not surprised that Spike’s treatment of these issues has been unfair, unbalanced and agenda-driven. But just because I’m not surprised doesn’t mean I can’t criticize him.
August 22nd, 2006 at 10:46:46 pm
I haven’t seen Lee’s Katrina film, but I’m not surprised it is slanted. I never got over his pro-Jigaboos, anti-Wannabes bias in School Daze.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:25:37 pm
Kanye’s outburst was one of passionate and dispair. All due respect the microcosm that is the USC walled garden (ever venture out to the world beyond them big gates? That’s Compton amigo) and Notre Dame world of benefits and dorm rooms with A/C hardly give you a right to comment. (Let’s not mention you being white and the shameful promotion of your site while the credits rolled) Please don’t profess to understand and please don’t condemn based on things you don’t know. Unfortunately the law books won’t teach you that. Their anger isn’t fake. You’re 24 - give it time. Go work for the ACLU, put your degree to use for the NAACP - THEN you can comment.
Spike’s message was clear. It was about race and NOW about money. The loser in all of this is clear.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:32:48 pm
Wow. Trollark’s comment doesn’t make any sense. Kanye’s anger may not be fake, but that doesn’t mean that his claims were rational or accurate.
Not sure why working for the ACLU or NAACP is a prerequisite for making informed commentary. I certainly didn’t see Kanye West toiling away at those esteemed organizations before he started throwing out highly inflammatory comments.
Brendan is not failing to sympathize with the minorities in New Orleans. The cheap shots at his education do nothing to advance this argument.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:39:29 pm
Brenden, I think Spike Lee presented this film from his point of view and only included comments of people who enhanced that view. That’s nothing different from Fox News and it’s heavily skewed programming that airs daily. I think that Kanye’s comment was dead on however incomplete. George Bush doesn’t care about POOR people. His actions over the last 5+ years more than prove that. Though they do not have a monopoly on being poor, a great deal of poor people happen to be Black which was certainly in the case in New Orleans. Since you raise the issue of there not being any “intelligent rebuttals to Kanye’s comment,” I think YOU should provide some. This is your blog and I am
interested in reading your thoughts on the matter.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:40:19 pm
“And from the same woman: “If they wanted us in New Orleans, they wouldn’t have tried to drown us and kill us. I’m not going to go back so they can kill us off.â€? No rebuttal, no analysis. He just let that comment sit there. Nice.”
Well, the picture spoke for themselves. 4-5 days before the government of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA came to the assistance of ITS OWN CITIZENS.
Food and water was dropped in Banda Aceh, and the rest of the Sumatra in 2 days. Mind you, on the otherside of the world after a completely UNEXPECTED event.
In the recent Israel-Lebanon-Hezbollah event, the government of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA went halfway around the world to evacuate ITS OWN CITIZENS our of Lebanon. Also, it was suggested by our leaders that the U.S. should give aid to rebuild Southern Lebanon.
So, there are two instances right there, where the government of the United States went halfway around the world at a moment’s notice to provide assistance through food and evacuation. Yet, they sat back while people (read: CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)died not only in New Orleans , but the rest of southeastern Louisiana and the Mississippi Gulf Coast, and you think the woman’s remarks have no substance?
When the countries you brand as the “axis of evil” and other “rogue nations” offer their condolences, offer help, and comment on the response (North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba) you know you did something pretty foul to your own citizens.
It’s nice to be positive, but there becomes a time when you have to be realistic.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:44:18 pm
You have to understand that we as african americans in this country were brought to the united stats of america as slaves. Since that point we have had to claw scratch and fight for our rights and respect. It is hard for us sometimes not think of things as being racist because of our history. The same way the haulacaust will never leave the minds of jewish people because the death and persacution is part of their history. Our race like all others have people who say things in ignorance. However, If you were in that type of situation those victims were in, you might feel the same way. If you sat for 5 days with no response from the most powerful nation in the world, you might have come to the conclusion that george bush didn’t care because the majority of people there were black and poor. Look at the ignorant statements made by his mother(the apple doesnt fall far from the tree). I am ashamed to say that condalesa Rice also did not care about her people that were suffering. As an african american male I do agree that often times racism is improperly used as a scapegoat for many things that happen in our country. I feel like our world is not as much about color these days, it’s more about power, money and class. I don’t feel the documentary was slanted because this is just genuinly how these poeple felt. He made it a point to have plenty of white citizens who could also share their point of view. If you have seen spikes lee’s movies he is always far, willing to show the ignorance of all races, black included.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:49:32 pm
Kevin is RIGHT ON.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:56:38 pm
“You mean Spike deliberately left out all commentary from interviewees (like me) who criticized Kanye’s comments, and contended that the government’s failures came from incompetence, not malice? Oh.”
It was deliberate malice - you can’t lay this all on Nagin’s feet. The bush administration has been *overly* effective in accomplishing the goals it wants to - and believe me those goals are not fighting terrorism, or spreading democracy - they don’t care about those things. And the bush administration could not have cared less about the victims of Katrina.
August 22nd, 2006 at 11:57:18 pm
Wow…Obviously if you are blogging on this site you have
some level of conciousness and intelligence. No matter how you may
disagree with Brenden and anyone else who thinks Spike slanted the
film, or vice versa, we should refrain from the insults
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:06:33 am
I’m a Gator fanatic, but I cheat on them with SC…That said, Kanye’s statements came from frustration, a frustration that I don’t think you can ever fathom to endure. But I guess that leads us to the point of does Kanye’s frustration justify him speaking out against out our monarchy ( I mean PRESIDENT). It was GHW’s convient incompetence that spawned the frustrated comments by Kanye. In times of suffrage, and when the suffrage is overwhelmingly by your people (black or white), sometimes angert and resentment can get the best of us. Obviously, GW loves black people because of Condi and Colin…and loves the Mexican’s because of the AG, AG. I don’t think FEMA had seperte data bases, but would the government have acted this way in a heavily caucasian populus? Would a heavliy caucasian populus have to sustain a blatant disregard for human life? And if so, would Nick Lachey or Justin Timberlake been out of line for calling out the Monarch? Since these questions are so far fetched, I’ll just state we’ll have to sum it up circumstance and never know the ill effects of causian suffering on a massive scale. I mean Peyton and Eli Manning are from the N.O. and you don’t hear them bitching right? I think Kanye should have said, GW hates POOR people. Condi and Colin are extremely well off black people and I guess the AG, AG is too. But I have to agree with Kanye in regards that GW is out of touch with the plight of Black people. But why should he be in touch with the plight of Black people? Black people did little to nothing to get him elected, and he has a real crisis going on in the Middle East. I don’t think it’s fair for the plight of the people of the N.O. to interfere with the massive frontier war we have going on in the Middle East. One time I watched an interview conducted by Cecil Fielder with the Hill’s (Grant Hill’s parents). He asked Calvin Hill about the President. Calvin Hill went on to say that he and GW were fraternity bros. at Yale and though he disagrees w/ GW’s politics, he considered him a great guy. And for some strange reason, I believe him. I think GW could care less about black or white people. He cares about his people. And his mother’s comments pale in comparrison to the comment she made on the campaign trial stating to some young black boy “I’m sure you’ll be a good basketball player when you grow up.” TO be fair, he may have said I want to be a ball player, or he may have said, I wanaa go to Andover. (I purposely spelled wanna that way). Lastly I’m an Independent or ex-Democrat. Like the Gators, the Democrats look good going into mid-term elections but will lose big because they insist on running the spread offense inthe fastest conference in football. The Trojans however, will dominate and reload w/out Reggie and ‘em and won’t miss a beat with the new backs and Booty. Yeah they had a couple of Scandals but like the Repubs, the Trojans will FIGHT ON!..
GO GATORS!
FiGHT ON!
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:09:35 am
Just as this blog and its creator are under no obligation to present a “fair and balanced” view, Spike Lee is also under no obligation to do so. It’s his film. *shrug*
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:23:13 am
Spike did not need to include criticsm of kanye because the documentary wasn’t about kanye. It was about the failures of the government and how fucked up the whole situation is. If spike was trying to prove that this was a case of racism then why were there some many white peole in the documentary who also got to share their view? Kanye’s satements(later censored by the media) were used as a sign of the times. It showed the feelings and emotions of some people(not all). The same way some belived the levee’s were blown up but, most didn’t. He showed a wide range of views, even some of white people in the documentary thought race played a major role. Kanyes statements didn’t change anyones opinions about this situation at that time and still haven’t. He merely said what some people where thinking. Believe me, not all black people fell like this was a situation caused by racism.Stop focusing on one 3 mintue part of a 4 hour documentary just because of preconceived notions about spike lee. How many of you who criticise have ever seen any of his work? Again, he always provides on unbiased view on all races mostly focusing on the short comings of our race in an attempt to show a better way. You should hit up blockbuster, start with “do the right thing”.
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:29:54 am
what happened to leahy??
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:33:58 am
You’ve received some good responses and insight Brenden…just wondering why you haven’t written anything since post #4. What’s the bottom line when it comes to Hurricane Katrina? Many United States Citizens (not refugees) lost their lives, homes , and families without aid from their government for 5 days…5 days. Those are the facts. And it certainly doesn’t matter who dropped the ball, but who the heck is going to pick it up? If the right thing was done, Spike Lee would not have had a documentary to compose. Or at least it might have been one more to your liking. Kanye West said what he felt, and why is that any different from you saying what you feel? People were suffering while the whole world watched. Get over yourself.
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:43:37 am
Toy, you’re right, I’ve gotten some good responses. It’s good to get new perspectives — previously, most of the people commenting on my Spike Lee-related posts were coming from InstaPundit, whose audience is predominantly conservative, so those people mostly agreed with my criticisms of Spike. Now that I’ve getting some hits directly from the movie itself, I get a different perspective. Very interesting.
To answer your question about why I haven’t posted in a while, I was away from a computer. I’m just catching up on these comments now. Unfortunately I don’t have time to say much more, as I need to go to bed. So I’ll just say that I’ve appreciated everyone’s comments, including those I disagree with. The only exception is Trollark’s specious, insult-laden, and frankly racist comment (because I’m white, I have no right to comment on this issue? yeah, that’s an enlightened view… and btw, the neighborhood surrounding USC is not Compton, it’s South Central; Compton is much further south). But everyone else’s contributions, I appreciate, and I will try to respond in more detail at some point if I have time.
Also, on the highly unlikely chance Spike Lee is reading this, I want to thank him for the opportunity to appear in his film. Although I didn’t agree with some of the editorial choices made, it was a good movie overall and did an excellent job of portraying the suffering of the people of New Orleans, who richly deserve our sympathy and our continued support.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:20:46 am
Saw you on the show tonight and was very touched and saddened by what I saw. It truly is something we should never ever forget. The government (all) are responsible for this terrible tragedy that has come upon all of you in the New Orlens area.
My main comment is that you should all keep up with your survival techniques and don’t ever give up.
It’s like building a house and it will take time, one brick at a time but with the heart and desire you all have you will make it. Don’t give up hope.
We are in Toronto, Canada and we are praying every day for your safe rebuilding of a wonderful city.
Good luck, and God Bless…..
We love you all down there……
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:21:49 am
Daniel Boyington
Toronto, Canada
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:44:42 am
Show me something good the Bush administration has done for the 98% of the population of the U.S. that is not wealthy. I dare you! Bush doesn’t care about people, especially powerless ones, and there is little doubt of that with 54% (at least) of the American people.
You are obviously very privileged, annoying, young and self-righteous. How embarassing for you.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:01:53 am
Okay, I’ll bite.
Jane, I don’t support the Bush Administration. If you’re asking me to defend them, you’re going to be very disappointed.
But I also don’t support race-baiting. I think it is damaging to everyone: blacks, whites, society at large.
The failures that occurred in Katrina were the result of incompetence, not malice. There is not a shred of evidence to the contrary. (Innuendo does not count as evidence.) Even if George Bush truly doesn’t “care” about black people, or poor people, or people generally, it would still be entirely irrational for him to intentionally disregard their welfare, given the potential political damage. Katrina was a devastating blow to Bush politically. Even taking the most cynical view possible, assuming that Kanye West is right, that still doesn’t explain what happpened. The only way to explain what happened is sheer incompetence. And incompetence is color-blind.
Also, the victims of Katrina were by no means all black. Lots of white people, many of them elderly, died and suffered in New Orleans, too. And once you step outside the borders of New Orleans, and even moreso once you get into Mississippi, you’re dealing with predominantly white people… and they were devastated too, and relief was slow to come to them, too. How does Kanye explain that?
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:06:23 am
The absence of evidence, is not the evidence of absence.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:17:35 am
No, it’s not. But after pointing out the lack of evidence, I proceeded to affirmatively make a logical case for my own point of view. I’m not relying simply on the “absence of evidence” to make my case.
I forgot to respond to Jane’s final line. How embarassing for you, Jane, that you’d make such a silly, insulting comment. First, you obviously don’t know enough to about me to assert that I’m “very privileged,” and in fact, this statement is wrong. I certainly don’t deny that I’m more privileged than the average Katrina victim, but I’m also certainly not “very privileged” by any objective standard. Privileged, maybe; “very” privileged, no. And in any event, how is that relevant? Stop being classist and let’s talk about substance, not engage in ad hominem attacks, k? As for “annoying,” well, that’s purely a matter of opinion, so I won’t argue with you on that. “Young”? Yes, I’m young — 24 going on 25. Who cares? What does that have to do with anything? Again, why are we talking about my personal traits instead of discussing the substance of an issue? And finally, “self-righteous.” I’m not sure why you’d say that. Simply because I have certain strong opinions, therefore I’m “self-righteous”? Seems to me, your real problem here is that you disagree with me, and you can’t conceive of how any reasonable person could possibly hold a view contrary to yours, so you are smearing me with personal insults. That’s a sure sign of a bad debater and/or a weak argument.
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:58:34 am
Especially to the newcomers on this blog: I echo Brendan’s comments, thanks for sharing yours, gets pretty conservative back here, and though I myself am conservative, balance is always better than one-sidedness.
Further: this blog has seen its share of Democratic-party bashing over Lieberman’s loss lately, with several theories of why the Democratic party stinks these days, most of them dealing with the losers at the helm.
I believe that Spike’s movie is a beautiful demonstration of what REALLY ails the Democratic party:
The thing they’re selling - sucks.
The money quote of the entire four hour film was the woman talking about her FEMA trailer:
“It took me four months to get a FEMA trailer, and that wasn’t too bad, a lot of people I knew had to wait a lot longer for theirs”.
Mind you, we’re talking about basically a mobile home. On bricks. How, in a huge catastrophe, with many thousands of Americans left homeless, does it take more than 4 DAYS to drive a bunch of mobile homes down to Louisiana, plop em down and have the people move in?
4 months is FAST?
I don’t know if in the earlier days of the “Great Society” people felt they were getting their money’s worth. Maybe it was never that great. But EVERYONE in America knows it now.
And increasingly, people (particularly middle class people) resent having to pay for a system that not only doesn’t work, but also has very little interest in working.
Spike’s film wonderfully illustrates that fact.
A while back I posted that the Democratic party needs to reinvent itself with new ideas, sell new policies that Americans can support, rather than constantly shuffling new buffoons into positions of “power”, ever-shrinking their already dying power base.
If you don’t believe that after watching this film, I don’t know what more can be said.
August 23rd, 2006 at 8:24:29 am
Anyone who thinks that there wasnt a racial divide and bias during the funding and rebuilding after Hurricane Katrina is a jackass! While FEMA may not have separate databases-you do have to meet a FEMA inspector (some red neck from Texas) in most cases and thats where some blacks claim the racism bagan and look who has their schools and neighborhoods up and running in N.O.-whites and look at whose still spread out all over and being allowed to return back to a city, that for the most part, whites just started moving into New Orleans while their ancetsors have been there for hundreds of years-it is the blacks who are still displaced. This is one case where racism cant be denied.
August 23rd, 2006 at 8:53:17 am
Jazz -
Umm, I think you are getting overwrought on the trailers. I doubt that FEMA has a depot with tens of thousands of trailers ready to be shipped and an equal supply of trucks to deliver them wherever, with one trailer per truck.
Think of the logistics for a second here. After Katrina, bridges destroyed, roads destroyed, practically the whole Gulf Coast (Not just NO) was savaged. Yet, your saying we should have all those trailers assembled in four days?
I am not defending the government here, but it certainly seems like people are elevating the abilities and responsiveness of the government to mythic levels.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html
“Dozens of National Guard and Coast Guard helicopters flew rescue operations that first day–some just 2 hours after Katrina hit the coast. Hoistless Army helicopters improvised rescues, carefully hovering on rooftops to pick up survivors. On the ground, “guardsmen had to chop their way through, moving trees and recreating roadways,” says Jack Harrison of the National Guard. By the end of the week, 50,000 National Guard troops in the Gulf Coast region had saved 17,000 people; 4000 Coast Guard personnel saved more than 33,000.”
Remember that there are still people who believe the news stories of babies being raped at the Superdome.
August 23rd, 2006 at 8:59:16 am
Lojo,
Granted. Four days was hyperbole for the sake of making the point. Maybe 4 days is asking a lot. 4 weeks though? That seems reasonable.
4 months? Positively glacial.
In this day and age, when we’re talking government services, 4 months is actually fast.
And that’s the fundamental problem for those who would advocate tax-and-spend government solutions to societal problems.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:11:56 am
Jazz -
Okay, consider this. Logisitical questions:
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:23:34 am
Jazz -
Let’s try that again. Logistical questions:
1) Inventory: Does FEMA have that many on hand? If not, does the government through other agencies or military? If so, how do you get all that information together? If they don’t have the trailers, where do you get them? If from private businesses? Who pays the business? How much are they asking (i.e., are they gouging)? If not, who has approval to approve all these different purchases?
2) Transport: Okay, easy answer is to arrange different locations where trailers are available and the trailers would be delivered there. How many trucks? Does FEMA have enough or do they have to contract out? Does legal approve the contracts? How quick can they move since one trailer per truck. What about utilities for all the trailers? Where are all the locations these trailers being shipped from? Where should the delivery locations be?
3) Delivery: How do you confirm someone is a Katrina victim? FEMA number, but what if they have not registered yet? What if family is too big to be in one trailer? Need to keep track of how goes in what trailer. What is the limit of people in trailer? What is the limit of trailers per location?
Keep in mind Jazz, if they delivered 30 trailers (that means 30 rigs delivering trailers) EVERY day for 4 months, that is only 3,600 trailers for tens of thousands of homeless. You could double it (60 trailers a day) and still only make a big dent in the problem.
That’s why the IRS waived affordable housing eligibility requirements and allowed thousands of people to stay in affordable housing apartments on FEMA subsidies.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:42:17 am
Okay, I read this blog but I never post comments, but I feel I have to say something here. The simple fact of the matter is, age and experience do matter a great deal when it comes to shaping personal beliefs and opinions.
Coming out of college, I held certain political views, and believed that the world followed a certain logic. But that was before I struggled to get a job in my field, and ultimately failed…and my field was tech-related, keep in mind. That was before I lived off of minimum wage pay in a lousy retail job for a few years. That was before I went back to school full-time and kept working full-time on top of that.
My point is, I never realized before all this happened that I was in fact viewing the world from a privileged position before. Because the fact is, college is a privileged place. Being able to go there without taking out massive loans, working long hours, or raising children at the same time, is a privileged existence, bottom line.
It seems to me that most political blogs are made by college kids who watch a lot of TV and think a lot about what they have to say and think. The fact that the people with the least amount of true life experience think that what they think matters so much is truly frightening.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:44:39 am
I watched the show. It told the story of New Orleans and the surrounding area. The story is a different one for every citizen. Spike just let the people speak. The lady you commented on BELIEVES what she said. It was important that she be heard. I think it was a very balanced show. Maybe that is because I live in the culture and understand its subtlties. Don’t make this a partisan issue. It is not. It is OUR STORY and it needs to be heard as that… Not as a partisan political war which is all it has become to America. This isn’t a TV series, this is our world.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:56:34 am
And another thing about racism and classism: just because it isn’t overt, that doesn’t mean it does not exist. The fact is that these problems are more insidious than they were in the old days, because people have figured out how to be subtle and cover their tracks.
Everything our leaders say and do is so stage-managed as to prevent them from actually revealing any true opinions. Why do you think Cheney never explicitly said that there were links between Iraq and Al Qaeda? He just made funny gestures and hinted at what he thought. And now he can go back and say that he never made such claims.
People are oppressed in subtle, insidious ways now. The days of McCarthyism and Whites Only drinking fountains are over, but that doesn’t mean that the beliefs that led to such abominations still don’t exist; the people that hold these beliefs have just gotten smarter.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:03:23 am
The arrogance of New Orleans’ Katrina victims (or perhaps more likely, Katrina victim-speaker-for-ers) is astounding. The hurricane hit more than just the Ninth Ward, guys. It hit Mississippi, Alabama and, oh yeah, IT CROSSED FLORIDA before it reentered the Gulf to approach Louisiana. And don’t forget Rita the month after. Good God, that New Orleans finally got hit with “the big one” doesn’t mean that it only hit New Orleans or that it was completely unanticipated.
This just in…San Francisco is prone to getting earthquakes.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:08:32 am
I’m just sad that Kanye said that part about George Bush not caring about black people, because I thought the rest of his comments were fairly moving, and they were never repeated.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:25:46 am
Most of what I saw were just people with their hands out. Katrina was an act of God. There was nothing that could be done to avert it. Most of the people I saw, including blacks, whites, hispanics,just seemed to me to be lazy.
Instead of waiting on Uncle Sam to prop you back up with a house, a job, etc…, get off of your butt and make something happen. Instead of being grateful for any help the government can give, these people are indignant that they aren’t getting everything, all the time, right now.
People claim racism or classism, but most of the folks I saw interviewed seemed to have no interest in picking themselves up and moving on.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:40:30 am
Personal responsibility is always a tricky issue. Of course people are at heart responsible for their own actions. But the thing is, when you take away any hope a person might have of living a decent life, you remove any incentive they have to do anything.
I really believe that everyone is born with an inherent desire to succeed in life. That makes complete sense whether you think it is God-given or is hard-wired into us through evolution. But because of society’s inequalities, people get around to understanding (whether they are conscious of this or not) that there is no hope for them in this life. Fact: America’s poor neighbourhoods are among the worst places to live in the world. No other Western nation has such widespread poverty and crime.
Moreover, there are fewer and fewer chances these days to rise up from such harsh conditions. The Economist has done studies to show that social mobility in America is on the decline. Anyone who thinks that success in this world does not come from knowing the right people and making the right connections has no idea how the world works.
August 23rd, 2006 at 10:48:37 am
Dfens:
FACT: The people who are considered poor in America have a higher standard of living than any poor people in the world….EVER.
Nobody ever said rising up out of the ashes was easy. But to say that the “man” is holding you down (paraphrasing)is a very weak excuse. The main reason that people don’t do it is because they are unwilling to make the sacrifices required. They don’t want to give up their TV’s, their cell phones, and all of the other creature comforts they think they “need”.
I refuse to buy in to the notion that in America in 2006, a person can use race or class as an excuse not to improve their lot in life.
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:13:58 am
JRDickens:
If you think the poor people living in America are better off than they are anywhere else in the world, you have a lot of learning and growing up to do.
Let me give you the hard facts. In terms of wages relative to inflation, low-income Americans are significantly poorer compared to their brethren from 30-40 years ago. Significantly. Minimum wage is still only a little over 5 bucks an hour. Even if you work 4000 hours a year, which is 80 hours a week, roughly, that gets you $20,000 per year. What the hell kind of money is that in this day and age?
You should travel around a bit to see how poor people live in other Western countries. I will never respect anyone’s opinions about America compared to the rest of the world unless they have seen other places. These days everyone seems to form opinions based on what the pundits say on TV.
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:14:50 am
Somewhat related to JRDickens’ point, my wife made the following droll observation during the part where people were saying that everything they had was destroyed in the flood:
“You know what’s waterproof? An IRA”
To which I lamely replied:
“What if you invest in a shipping company whose boats all drown?”
Point being - if people were generally motiated to take care of their own interests, participate in the ownership society, then they wouldn’t be so reliant on a ‘place’ or other ‘things’…
…on the other hand, if people stopped consuming things, the economy might be hurt, and our IRAs and 401(K)s might go down…
…never mind. As you were…
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:21:51 am
By the way, just do I don’t sound overly radical, I know that a lot of poor people waste their money on big-screen TVs and cell phones and other unnecessary luxuries. I’m not one of those people that thinks that the poor are all noble and good. Of course a lot of them are foolish. Thanks to big business we live in a world of over-consumption, and we’re all guilty of spending beyond our means. But the poor are the most susceptible to the utopian visions presented by advertisers trying to sell their products. If you desperate and uneducated, you are more likely to think that possessions will be the answers to your problems if loud, flashy commercials say so. That’s a whole other problem entirely.
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:34:19 am
For DFens, JRDickens, and EVERYONE -
Please read this awesome article from the Motley Fool:
http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2004/commentary04123101.htm
In the spirit of The Millionaire Next Door, it is chock full of stories of average, and sub-average folks, who were disciplined savers and passed on, when they passed away, TONS of money.
I bet you that substantially everyone in America can find their way to as much money as Gladys Holm ‘earned’ in her lifetime.
Who can avoid enough big screen tvs and fancy cell phones to invest like Gladys such that they die with $18 million?
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:34:55 am
DFens -
You mean other countries like France which enforce laws to prevent assimilation of other races and cultures? Where unemployment in 2004 was 10.1%?
Or maybe that Norway, Spain, and Germany have a higher death rate then US?
Or that Finland, Sweden, and Germany all have lower GDP per capita than the US?
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:39:34 am
You really showed me Dfens. I guess I’ll wait another 40 years ’till I’m all growed up before I believe my lying eyes.
I’ve seen plenty of poor people in the western world, mostly in Mexico. Maybe that’s not considered the west, although geographically it lies along the same North-South axis as the US. I didn’t see a lot of them with color TV’s, cell phones, cars, etc… So there’s really no need to self righteously lecture me about it.
Additionally, since we are being completely anecdotal in our observations, I know very few people outside of kids or retirees who are paid minimum wage. The kids get MW because they by and large have no marketable skills. The retirees get it because that’s all they can earn and still collect SS.
Also, to correct you on your math, 4000 hours per year at the current minimum wage would gross a person almost $27K if it all came from 1 job.
As for all my learning and growing up I have to do, I’ve been there and done that. I lost almost everything about 5 years ago (business,house, cars, stuff, etc…) It was a tough slog, but I finally pulled myself out of it. I didn’t have anybody give me anything, and I still managed to do it. I’m not different from anybody else in that situation.
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:51:57 am
JRDickens:
Okay, I’ll take back what I said about you having some “learning” to do. I got hot-headed about these discussions.
That’s great that you were able to work hard and pull yourself out of your slump. It’s great when anyone can do that. And yes, a lot of people who could help themselves are just too lazy to do so. But there are also a lot of other people that would do so if they were only given a little bit of support or slightly more means.
By the way, 4000 hours * $5.15 minimum wage is $20,600/year. Now think about it. If someone is making such little money, working basically every waking hour, living in a neighbourhood with high crime and nothing in the way of community life, what are their chances of making it out of that? The best will; most won’t.
I know that many of these problems are at least partially self-inflicted, but there are also overarching factors that come into play. The point is that this whole “personal responsibility” debate is nonsense anyway. All Western democratic nations were founded on the Social Contract principle, which states that all the citizens of a society give up certain personal rights in the expectation that society as a whole will make up for this sacrifice. Yet governments are increasingly absolving themselves of the obligations to their citizens in the name of personal responsibility. If government is not going to live up to its end of the bargain, we might as well go back to the feudal system.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:06:47 pm
Dfens,
Two points I’ll quibble with you on.
#1. You are neglecting to take into account overtime for your minimum wage computation. The 1st 40 hours are paid at $5.15 per hour. Each additional hour above that is paid at $7.73 per hour.
#2. You may be far more educated about this than I am, but I don’t recall anywhere in the US Constitution where it calls for an individual giving up any rights at all. In fact, I think just the opposite is true. I think that the US was founded with the thinking that her citizens understood and would exercize personal responsibility with regards to their own lives.
I think our disagreement really boils down to the fact that I have faith in the human condition and you do not. Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but that’s what I am inferring from your rhetoric.
What I am hearing you say is that the government has somehow failed because you think it has an obligation to take care of its citizens and it hasen’t. I think the government has failed its citizens by taking care of them too much and robbing them of their ambition.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:22:36 pm
JRDickens:
Okay, I get where you got your figures now. Still, I think we can agree that 80 hours/week is a lot of work!
I guess my view of things is somewhat pessimistic, but I also think that the way society is structured today is the reason why so many people are failing. It’s an illusion to think that we are not shaped by our environments, and that are actions are not in many ways a direct response to what we see around us. This is how we are wired. We have a lot less control over our action than we think, if you ask me.
Anyway, the thing that really bothers me is that government trumpets that idea of personal responsibility while providing big business with tax cuts and subsidies. For example, no big aerospace company could survive without government contracts. And few companies would remain solvent without the huge tax cuts they have received over the past 20 years or so. How is personal responsibility at work when you need to lobby for privileges constantly just to get by? This is what all major corporations do. If individuals did the same thing, they would be chastised.
This is getting away a bit from the original debate, but it is at the root of what bothers me so much, so I thought I’d throw it out there.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:26:47 pm
I think the government has failed its citizens by taking care of them too much and robbing them of their ambition.
I agree with this sentiment entirely. DFens surely knows a lot more about political philosophy than I, but to my thinking the ’social contract’ should include people doing what JRDickens described, that is, pulling themselves up when faced with challenges, etc.
Just went over to Wikipedia to be sure “Social contract theory” was as I remembered it (assuming Steven Colbert hasn’t been to the site).
I also agree with JRDickens that the US Constitution seems to be more against the social contract than for it. Indeed, the view of a Hobbes/Rousseau/social contract type is that we shmucks will kill each other if not for central control.
It may seem that way sometimes if you’re a regular blogger.
However, the US Constitution explicitly rejects central control as the means to a prosperous society; it draws its strength from the individual’s “pursuit of happiness”.
Don’t want to pontificate here; I am no expert. I go off on this point because I think the encouragement of individual liberty is a big part of what makes the US a great nation.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:37:13 pm
DFens, I hadn’t read your last comment when I posted mine.
To:
Anyway, the thing that really bothers me is that government trumpets that idea of personal responsibility while providing big business with tax cuts and subsidies
1) Go back and read the Motley Fool article I linked at 11:34 AM.
Where did those little people get all their money? For the most part, from being owners of big business. Who owns the Dow 30? You can. Its as easy as opening an account and plunking down a few dollars at Sharebuilder.com
2) The problem with government is not that it provides subsidies to big business (though it does). The problem is that government is in bed with all manner of lobbyists and special interests, some big business, some not.
Being beholden to any special interest, whether big business or otherwise, is antithetical to the spirit of our nation.
Still and all, the meme that business underpays tax is basically groundless -
Big business pretty much pays 37% tax on earnings in the US. There are several IRS auditors crawling around every big company at all times.
Finally, while you may not care what your bottom line looks like when you write off a bunch of investments or losses, the company whose shares you own cares a lot.
If you have so many write-offs that you end up reporting before-tax earnings (on your 1040) of $1.50, and then pay no taxes, you wouldn’t necessarily care.
If the big business reports before-tax earnings of $1.50, the shareholders would go crazy and everyone would get fired.
Big business pays A LOT of tax in the US. Its just a cheap and easy shot to suggest they don’t.
August 23rd, 2006 at 12:39:03 pm
I have a question and I’m hoping someone can answer it. We have all these places of poverty in the country and New Orleans was and still is a big example of it. People talk about not being able to get out of poverty and not having the opportunities that rich people do. Well why don’t people move? There are smaller cities, with lower crime, lower cost of living, and plenty of high paying jobs. After Katrina hit we tried to offer housing to some of the victims, but they were unwilling to take it because it was too far (Idaho). If I was struggling to find work, or struggling to make ends meet I would find any way I could to change that situation. In most of those cases, I would most likely have to move and would willingly leave in order to provide a better future for my kids.
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:22:36 pm
I agree with DFens that age and experience matters when it comes to the sensitivity of life. However, I agree with Brendan that it was not malice, but pure incompetence that became tangled up with racist connotations as a means to attack the administration. But DFens arguements fails to mention that character is inculcated at an early age, or maybe it’s a genetic thing. The point being made here is that a person can understand life at an early age relative to his IQ. DFens leaves one to believe that society is to be blamed for all the mishaps in life, and more conclusive, the idea that personal responsibility, not fighting for one’s rights and respect, as someone on the thread observed, are at the core value of understanding that it was incompetence, not mischiviousness, the cause of the Katrina *tragedy.*
By the way, I’m sure that Spike is motivated by his political spectrum and personal bias. So, other than to hear BL comments on the film, I don’t want to watch this movie. Besides, I already know where BL stands on the issue.
Besides, as I recall, the blacks sat around waiting for help instead of organizing themselves and helping themselves. Rioting, rape, and pillage ensued. The levees could have been fixed many administrations back–but, noone is talking about that, are they?
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:38:09 pm
Besides, as I recall, the blacks sat around waiting for help instead of organizing themselves and helping themselves.
While I agree that people should take more personal responsibility, that would come before the storm, and people who are economically disadvantaged have a much harder time taking the necessary steps than the rest of us do (though the fact remains that they ought to prioritize it more; we all should). You make it sound like there’s something “the blacks” should have done after the storm to “help themselves.” Short of travelling back in a time machine, buying stockpiels of food and water, and perhaps a boat… I’m not sure what you have in mind.
Rioting, rape, and pillage ensued.
Those reports were vastly, VASTLY exaggerated. There was some crime, but New Orleans was not the war zone that it was portrayed as in the media (though this isn’t entirely the media’s fault — when the police chief was repeating unfounded rumors as fact, what as the media supposed to do? ignore him? he’s the police chief!!). Anyway I’m not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting that because a small percentage of people behaved badly, somehow this reflects poorly on “the blacks” as a whole? I’m sure you didn’t have any racist intent, but your statement does tend to give off a poor impression, IMHO.
The levees could have been fixed many administrations back–but, noone is talking about that, are they?
This is a fair point. It’s ludicrous to claim that the levees were somehow the fault of Bush alone. The levee failure was absolutely a federeal government problem, but it’s a Bush problem, a Clinton problem, a Bush problem, a Reagan problem, a Carter problem, etc. …
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:06:05 pm
Brendan -
Actually, given how the Corp of Engineers is funded, it sounds like it is more of a Congress problem.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:30:59 pm
Fact - the poor of the US are FAR richer than the poor of the rest of the world. Take a drive through shanty towns in South Africa. Take a drive through Brazil, Argentina, anywhere in South America. You will see entire communities of lean-to boxes. Welfare in the US is FAR FAR FAR more luxurious than anything most of the world has for their poor/underclass. And yes, I HAVE seen it. Believe me, if you can afford a black and white TV and a car… compared with most of the worlds worst off, you are far away from poor.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:42:06 pm
While the poor in the States may be better off economically than their brethren elsewhere, there are other issues to consider.
First of all, they are becoming more and more a marginalized and forgotten segment of society. The gap between rich and poor is growing, and the middle class is disappearing. These trends, moreover, show no signs of slowing down. If that doesn’t concern you, it should. A large segment of the population is growing angrier and more desperate by the day. I’m sure that right before the Peasant’s Revolt in medieval England began, nobody was solaced by the fact that they were better off than the Peasants in, say, the Grand Duchy of Moscow.
Second of all, while the poor may be brimming with possessions compared to, say, rice paddy farmers in Vietnam, in terms of community ties and kinship, they are a disaster. If you look at Harlem in the early 20th century, poverty was rampant and much worse than it is today, but it was also a thriving community. The support system that develops in such an environment makes it much easier for people to succeed. That this sort of system is lacking in most poor areas of major cities these days is a reason why crime is out of control and so many people cannot get out.
August 23rd, 2006 at 2:53:19 pm
DFens -
Your vastly underestimating a LOT of statistics and issues that make the whole underclass issue more than just, ‘rich getting richer, poor getting poorer’.
That statement, while true, does not mean that the rich or society is entirely to blame for growing poverty levels. There is a significant personal responsibility issue here as well.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:14:43 pm
IT:
You make it sound like there’s something “the blacks� should have done after the storm to “help themselves.�
USCROGER:
To put things in perspective: When the blackouts took place in NY many people had just resigned to the fact that their alternatives for getting home had been diminished. A lot of people found a place and sat down to ‘wait out’ the blackouts. However, there was a small segment of the overall ‘blackedout’ population that didn’t sit around to wait. As a result, many made arrangements to get home and got out of NY SOONER than most.
IT:
Are you suggesting that because a small percentage of people behaved badly, somehow this reflects poorly on “the blacks� as a whole?
NO, I’m not saying that. But, given the fact that only a small segment of the population was acting up; one can confidently ask why the majority didn’t take it upon themselves to organize and deplete the capabilities of the rampant few.
Furthermore, I was eviscerating (as the word seems to be widely in use these days) the point that you are right about the incompetence while some of your harshest critics are wrong in resenting your strong points of view which I tend to agree with.
In short, I thought it was rather ironic that while the people in NO were stranded, other *leaders* (*if one can consider them so) were the first ones to point that out. Long gap in time—then came the US response and finger-pointing.
Even more ironic is the idea that we’re still debating what went wrong, as opposed to what we can do to prevent this from happening ever again–irrespective of race.
I’m done, here.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:23:46 pm
Lojo:
I agree that personal responsibility does play a role, even if my comments have not entirely reflected that. What I don’t like is when people underestimate outside factors as well. It’s a funny thing that Westerners today think we are completely and totally responsible for who we are and what we do, when we live in the most propaganda-filled environment in the history of humanity.
But ultimately people do have to take control of their lives no matter what’s going on around them. The fact is thought that this is very, very hard for a lot of people.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:26:29 pm
And for the record, I sympathize with Kevin’s point. At the same time, one can hardly blame all ‘white’ people for the lack of response. And yes, I was touched by seeing the pictures of those kids and women struggling to stay on top of a car and not be washed away by the forming currents. Sentiments have nothing to do with color lines; it’s more a matter of humble respect for humanity, IMHO.
August 23rd, 2006 at 3:52:33 pm
Anonymous,
I’m on sabbatical. Though all of this Katrina talk is making me think about a comeback…
“How dare Spike not present a balanced view? But I’m not surprised, mind you. I expected it all along. I just like to work myself into a lather over totally predictable events.”
Pardon me, Loysius, while I go pontificate on the street corner about the inherent unfairness of rush hour traffic.
August 23rd, 2006 at 4:03:34 pm
LOL Coach.
August 23rd, 2006 at 5:25:35 pm
Jazz - corporate taxes are at an all time low, so no i don’t think they pay enough… listen to warren buffett himself.
“Buffett said corporate income taxes accounted for 7.4 percent of fiscal 2003 U.S. tax receipts. Except for 1983, that was the lowest in the last 70 years”
and yes, US companies pay 37.5% taxes, but how much of their money is taxed at that amount? How much is in offshore accounts or filtered through tax havens like Geneva. I would guess billions and billions (and billions!).
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:25:25 pm
Why not talk about personal responsibility when by some estimations up to 85% of the 150,000 Katrina evacuees in Houston remain jobless despite a booming economy and a desperate need for labor? Is the government responsible for that?
Source
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:35:16 pm
POINT BEING GW loves Black people! Now everyone must agree with that, right? For the most part, the opposite of hate is love, so if Kanye was wrong and ignorant to make that statement, then GW must love black people. He did speak at the NAACP convention in Balto this yeart, right? And he even brought Karl Rove with him. So all bloggers and Kanyeezy must recognize that there is a huge place in the GOP and big business (and small gov’t) for the brothas and sistas of America. A huge place. USC beats ND on the fast track of the Colesium (sp) by 10 this year!
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:41:13 pm
“…despite a booming economy and a desperate need for labor?”
I must be out of the loop, but a booming economy and a desperate need for labor?
August 23rd, 2006 at 6:43:45 pm
I’m on sabbatical. Though all of this Katrina talk is making me think about a comeback…
Coach, quite frankly, we’ve heard this before only to see you disappear again.
August 23rd, 2006 at 7:29:17 pm
Spike Lee’s documentary was a rehash of the book “The Great Deluge” by historian Douglas Brinkley who appeared many times in Lee’s documentary. Lee borrowed all of Brinkley’s insight and analysis. There was nothing new or original.
He evened borrowed an idea from Brinkley that appears midway through the book, that, oral history by the people who experience it themselves is much more riveting than history books (page 348).
In some ways this is true: we get the emotion, the passion, the scope of the event on the scale of the unique, quirkly human being who lives them.
But Lee’s style is too passive. Do his aesthetic preferences tilt him to want the viewer to make his own decisions about Nagin, for example? If so, he needs to present Nagin more fully, to document more of Nagin’s actions.
It seems Lee is going for trying to be subtle but gentle sway the viewer to think ill of Nagin by showing the footage that he did. Nagin comes off as slow, slick and somewhat drugged, not on pot gut some anti-anxiety medication.
So instead of direct voice-over commentary, Lee manipulates the viewer with the footage he chooses to show, the preponderence of black interviewees to white interviewees etc.
There is nothing wrong with this and at one moment he is brillant: when the black woman lands a new home in the foothills of Utah surrounded what looks like the Village of the Damned, Lee doesn’t ruin the absurd moment by stepping in and saying, “What is wrong with this picture?How the hell will she fit in and feel at home? Will they try to convert her to Mormonism? Why does she have to relocate so far from home?” Instead, Lee lets the viewer pick all this up for herself. There is commentary but it’s Barbara Walter’s cloying voice giving the scene a happy ending whereas I felt much dread and worry for this woman and her two kids who were so out of place.
Anyway, I think Lee had nothing new to say and he rode on the coattails of Brinkley. He had the energy to put alot of footage together and interview alot of peope. That would be it but I feel he is aggrandizing himself by sticking his name on this footage not too artuflly put together and seeking power on something no one has the right to seek power from.
August 23rd, 2006 at 9:04:02 pm
Wow, this thread is so full of idiotic statements and ignorance about so many different subjects, I’m incredibly happy I don’t have the time to comment seriously on any of them.
When did the Democratic Underground link to Brendan’s site?
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:14:54 pm
Andrew - aren’t the D-list in here just the founders of the Democratic Undergound in drag ?
August 23rd, 2006 at 11:24:03 pm
Ally!
You old rapscallion, how goes it?
Don’t forget to turn off the light when you come up from the basement.
-Mom
August 24th, 2006 at 12:20:19 am
I could give only 30% of the truth and
make it sound like the truth but Im
not. Yes slavery was everywhere in the
old days even before Islam from China
to England and even in both testaments
of the bible.Slaves in those days was
a servant or worker who paid his debt
to a King.In most cases a nation would
even trade slaves or workers to other
nation to promote business but it was
the types of slavery that sounded the
alarm in the “early” world. The kind
of slavery that no matter how hard
you worked you did not get paid.
The kind of salvery that you bet
not even think about taking a break
or getting sick because that= a
beating that could possibly kill
you.The kind of slavery that says
you are not a man or you are not
a woman you are a piece of trash
that we throw away.When the world
realized that this is something
different they had made laws that
made slavery illegal but pirates,
smugglers,prisoners in the American
south and west had that criminal
like mentality continued this evil
and wicked practice thaT of the likes
of Christopher Columbus whose own
shipmates wrote that he was a murdering
insane,rapist who drove the indians
to there deaths.This is why I say not
all people are evil just like not
all whites are evil because this nation
had a civil war fighting for what was
right.I wish more nation would do as
we did and fight for whats right.Instead of ……God bless
America but some of…….
August 24th, 2006 at 9:39:13 am
“Wow, this thread is so full of idiotic statements and ignorance about so many different subjects, I’m incredibly happy I don’t have the time to comment seriously on any of them.’
Well, thank God the statements are not complex and integrated, or you might decide not to write even if you had the time. ZZZZZZZZz
August 24th, 2006 at 10:14:21 am
Roger, do you put a white towel over your diploma when you wade into the cesspool over here?
August 24th, 2006 at 9:08:37 pm
He does not use towels only white bed
sheets and pillow cases as he rides
into the night.
August 24th, 2006 at 9:23:25 pm
Truth does not need a response. Remember that!!
August 24th, 2006 at 9:26:34 pm
Even if you had a response it would
more than likely be a integrated lie.
Wow!!! real complex
September 3rd, 2006 at 10:54:41 am
Listen, GWB doesn’t care about helping people anymore because it won’t get him re-elected
he’s already doing his doing his second term. so to say that it would hurt him politically
is nonsense. sorry, but I was surprised that he was re-elected. He is as incompetent as
they come. Everytime he gets on the podium, he does what Nagin did in his swearing-in. he
starts to get informal. THIS IS THE PRESIDENT. he represents USA as a whole and he’s
giving the German Chancellor back-rubs?(forgive me if i don’t know the lady is title).
the people he cares about aren’t black or white, they are Green, they are the rich, and
you can bet that berry gordy is in that little cluster of the 5% of the people who
control most of the U.S.
September 16th, 2006 at 12:31:33 pm
Im just saying It seem like they really
stick it to people of color who live
on this planet call earth.Thats not
fiction my friend.