BrendanLoy.com: Homepage | Comments | New Archives | Old Archives | Photos

« Previous post | Next post »
NHC issues official Katrina report; winds in New Orleans were Cat. 1-2
Posted by on Wednesday, December 21, 2005 at 6:05 am

The National Hurricane Center has issued its official Tropical Cyclone Reports on several of 2005’s storms, including Hurricane Katrina.

I’ll get to the nerdy stuff in a second, but first the question that even non-nerds want to know the answer to: How strong was Katrina in New Orleans? The answer, as expected, is unsettling:

While the intensity of Katrina was Category 3 as the center of the eye made its closest approach (about 20 n mi) to the east of downtown New Orleans, the strongest winds corresponding to that intensity were likely present only over water to the east of the eye. The sustained winds over all of metropolitan New Orleans and Lake Pontchartrain likely remained weaker than Category 3 strength. The strongest sustained wind in New Orleans is subject to speculation since observations are sparse, due in part to the power failures that disabled ASOS stations in the area before peak wind conditions occurred. However, the NASA Michoud Assembly Facility in eastern New Orleans measured a 1-minute sustained wind of 84 kt (at an elevation of about 12 m) near 1100 UTC 29 August. Also, a few instrumented towers placed in various locations in the metropolitan area by the Florida Coastal Monitoring Program (FCMP) and by Texas Tech University measured sustained winds in the range of 61-68 kt. The Mid-Lake Pontchartrain NWS site (16 m elevation), located along the Lake Pontchartrain Causeway about 8 n mi north of the south shore of the lake, also measured a one-minute sustained wind of 68 kt. Even though these various sites likely did not experience the maximum wind in the area, the Mid-Lake Pontchartrain site had open marine exposure, unlike most locations in the city of New Orleans. It appears likely that most of the city experienced sustained surface winds of Category 1 or Category 2 strength. It is important to note, however, that winds in a hurricane generally increase from the ground upward to a few hundred meters in altitude, and the sustained winds experienced on upper floors of high-rise buildings were likely stronger than the winds at the same location near the ground. For example, on average the 25th story of a building would experience a sustained wind corresponding to one Saffir-Simpson category stronger than that experienced at the standard observing height of 10 m.

For those who still think New Orleans experienced its worst-case scenario this past August, read that again: KATRINA’S WINDS WERE ONLY CAT. 1-2 IN THE CITY!!! And the ridiculous 27-foot storm surges didn’t occur in Louisiana, they occurred in Mississippi. New Orleans was submerged by a hurricane with Category 1, maybe 2, winds in the city, and a Category 2, maybe 3, surge in the city. All the heavy Cat. 3-4 stuff was elsewhere, so don’t be fooled by the big numbers. New Orleans was, meteorologically speaking, spared the brunt of it.

Good Lord, imagine how much worse it would have been, if the track had been just slightly different, bringing the winds and surge that hit Mississippi over New Orleans. I know I’ve said this before, but now there’s more hard data backing it up, and it really needs to be emphasized. You think those predictions of 100,000 dead were exaggerated? Think again, buster. It almost happened. And if you’re a New Orleans resident considering moving back home, my personal advice would be: don’t do it until they’ve got a Category Five-strength levee in place. I know Ray Nagin and Kathleen Blanco and George Bush don’t want me to tell you that, but it’s the truth. Your city dodged a meteorological bullet on August 29 — and it was still destroyed. Granted, shoddily designed levees were the proximate cause of its destruction, but the fact remains that even those reinforced Cat. 3-strength levees they’re promising by next June won’t protect you from a storm that does what Katrina almost did. And if such a storm ever hits — check that: when it hits — the city will be f***ed unless there’s a levee system much, much stronger than anything that’s ever been there before. Is it worth the risk of creating a whole new life in a city that’s just asking to be destroyed again, when the hammer stroke could fall at any time? Just my personal opinion, but no way, I wouldn’t live in New Orleans till they’ve got that new levee up. (So I guess you can consider this my “stay the hell out” post.)

Not that Katrina wasn’t plenty bad enough without resorting to even more horrifying worst-case scenarios. Indeed, reading the NHC’s dry recitation in the “Casualty and Damage Statistics” section of the storm’s devastating toll — not just on New Orelans, but on the whole central Gulf Coast — leaves one almost dumbfounded:

The extent, magnitude, and impacts of the damage caused by Katrina are staggering and are well beyond the scope of this report to fully describe. Thousands of homes and businesses throughout entire neighborhoods in the New Orleans metropolitan area were destroyed by flood. Strong winds also caused damage in the New Orleans area, including downtown where windows in some high rise buildings were blown out and the roof of the Louisiana Superdome was partially peeled away. The storm surge of Katrina struck the Mississippi coastline with such ferocity that entire coastal communities were obliterated, some left with little more than the foundations upon which homes, businesses, government facilities, and other historical buildings once stood. Despite being more distant from the eye of Katrina, the storm surge over Dauphin Island, Alabama destroyed or damaged dozens of beachfront homes and cut a new canal through the island’s western end. Many of the most severely impacted areas along the northern Gulf coast could take years to completely rebuild. Katrina’s heavy rains in southern Florida flooded some neighborhoods, primarily in Miami-Dade County. Many other structures from Florida and Georgia westward to Louisiana that avoided surge or fresh water floods, including some areas well inland, were damaged by strong winds and tornadoes. Considerable damage to some homes and agricultural facilities was caused by several tornadoes in Georgia. Strong winds caused significant tree damage throughout much of Mississippi and Alabama. Combining all of the areas it impacted, Katrina left about three million people without electricity, some for several weeks.

The economic and environmental ramifications of Katrina have been widespread and could in some respects be long-lasting, due to impacts on large population and tourism centers, the oil and gas industry, and transportation. The hurricane severely impacted or destroyed workplaces in New Orleans and other heavily populated areas of the northern Gulf coast, resulting in thousands of lost jobs and millions of dollars in lost tax revenues for the impacted communities and states. Along the Mississippi coast, several large casinos on floating barges were damaged or destroyed when the surge pushed them onshore. Large numbers of evacuees have not returned home, producing a shortage of workers for those businesses that have reopened. Major beach erosion occurred along the tourism-dependent coasts of Mississippi and Alabama. A significant percentage of United States oil refining capacity was disrupted after the storm due to flooded refineries, crippled pipelines, and several oil rigs and platforms damaged, adrift or capsized. An oil rig under construction along the Mobile River in Alabama was dislodged, floated 1.5 miles northward, and struck the Cochrane Bridge just north of downtown Mobile. An offshore oil rig washed up near the beach of Dauphin Island, Alabama. Several million gallons of oil were spilled from damaged facilities scattered throughout southeastern Louisiana. While several facilities have since resumed operations, as of this writing oil and natural gas production and refining capacity in the northern Gulf of Mexico region remains less than that prior to Katrina. Key transportation arteries were disrupted or cut off by the hurricane. Traffic along the Mississippi River was below normal capacity for at least two weeks following the storm. Major highways into and through New Orleans were blocked by floods. Major bridges along the northern Gulf coast were destroyed, including several in Mississippi and the Interstate 10 Twin Span Bridge connecting New Orleans and Slidell, Louisiana.

Estimates of the insured property losses caused by Katrina vary considerably and range between about $20 billion and $60 billion. The American Insurance Services Group (AISG) estimates that Katrina is responsible for $38.1 billion of insured losses in the United States. A preliminary estimate of the total damage cost of Katrina is assumed to be roughly twice the insured losses (using the AISG estimate), or about $75 billion. This figure would make Katrina far and away the costliest hurricane in United States history. Even after adjusting for inflation, the estimated total damage cost of Katrina is roughly double that of Hurricane Andrew (1992). Normalizing for inflation and for increases in population and wealth, only the 1926 hurricane that struck southern Florida surpasses Katrina in terms of damage cost. However, this would not be the case if the values on the higher end of the range of Katrina estimates are later found to be the most accurate. The Insurance Information Institute reports that, mostly due to Katrina but combined with significant impacts from the other hurricanes striking the United States this year, 2005 was by a large margin the costliest year ever for insured catastrophe losses in this country.

Data provided by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) indicate that over 1.2 million people along the northern Gulf coast from southeastern Louisiana to Alabama were under some type of evacuation order, but it is not clear how many people actually evacuated. Media reports indicate that many displaced residents have moved either temporarily or permanently to other areas in the United States. A large number of these people might never return to live in their pre-Katrina homes or cities. Thousands of people are still living in hotels and temporary shelters as of this writing. Some people remain separated from other family members and/or are unable to determine if their family member(s) survived the storm.

Wow.

Okay, on to the nerdy stuff. The report answers, or at least attempts to answer, several questions that have been bothering me for months. One is: how could the winds have been so (relatively) weak at landfall, when the pressure was so low?

The estimated Buras landfall intensity of 110 kt, just beneath the threshold of Category 4, is quite low relative to many other hurricanes with a comparable minimum central pressure. In fact, the central pressure of 920 mb is now the lowest on record in the Atlantic basin for an intensity of 110 kt, surpassing Hurricane Floyd (1999) that at one point had a central pressure of 930 mb with an intensity of 110 kt. The 920 mb pressure is also the third lowest at U. S. landfall on record, behind only Hurricane Camille in 1969 (909 mb) and the 1935 Labor Day hurricane that struck the Florida Keys (892 mb). The relatively weak winds in Katrina for such a low pressure are the result of the broadening pressure field on 29 August that spread the pressure gradient over a much larger than average distance from the center, as confirmed by both surface and aircraft observations. The generally weakening convection likely also reduced momentum mixing down to the surface, contributing to surface winds being less than what the usual 90% adjustment from flight level winds would dictate. Katrina exemplifies that there is not simply a direct one-to-one relationship between the central pressure and the maximum sustained winds in a hurricane.

Question number two: why was the storm surge so ridiculously high — as high as, if not higher than, Cat. 5 Camille — if Katrina was only a weakening Cat. 3 at landfall in Mississippi?

The massive storm surge produced by Katrina, even though it had weakened from Category 5 intensity the previous day to Category 3 at landfall in Louisiana, can be generally explained by the huge size of the storm. Katrina had on 29 August a large (about 25-30 n mi) radius of maximum winds and a very wide swath of hurricane force winds that extended at least 75 n mi to the east from the center. Even though Hurricane Camille (1969) was more intense than Katrina at landfall while following a similar track, Camille was far more compact and produced comparably high storm surge values along a much narrower swath. Also, Katrina had already generated large northward-propagating swells, leading to substantial wave setup along the northern Gulf coast, when it was at Category 4 and 5 strength during the 24 hours or so before landfall. In fact, buoy 42040, operated by the National Data Buoy Center (NDBC) and located about 64 n mi south of Dauphin Island, Alabama, reported a significant wave height (defined as the average of the one-third highest waves) of 30 feet as early as 0000 UTC 29 August. This buoy later measured a peak significant wave height of 55 feet at 1100 UTC that matches the largest significant wave height ever measured by a NDBC buoy. Overall, Katrina’s
very high water levels are attributable to a large Category 3 hurricane’s storm surge being enhanced by waves generated not long before by a Category 5 strength storm.

And what about Katrina’s rapid weakening in the final hours before landfall? What the hell?

The new eyewall that formed late on 27 August and contracted early on 28 August began to erode on its southern side very late on 28 August, while another outer ring of convection consolidated. These structural changes likely contributed to the rapid weakening that was observed prior to final landfall. Katrina turned northward, toward the northern Gulf coast, around the ridge over Florida early on 29 August. The hurricane then made landfall, at the upper end of Category 3 intensity with estimated maximum sustained winds of 110 kt, near Buras, Louisiana at 1110 UTC 29 August. Katrina continued northward and made its final landfall near the mouth of the Pearl River at the Louisiana/Mississippi border, still as a Category 3 hurricane with an estimated intensity of 105 kt. The rapid weakening of Katrina, from its peak intensity of 150 kt to 110 kt during the last 18 h or so leading up to the first Gulf landfall, appears to have been primarily due to internal structural changes, specifically the deterioration of the inner eyewall without the complete formation of a new outer eyewall. However, Katrina remained very large as it weakened, and the extent of tropical storm-force and hurricane-force winds was nearly the same at final landfall on 29 August as it had been late on 28 August. The weakening could have been aided by entrainment of dry air that was seen eroding the deep convection over the western semicircle while Katrina approached the coast. Gradually increasing wind shear, slightly lower ocean temperatures, and (following the first Gulf landfall) interaction with land each could also have played a role. Without extensive investigation, however, it is not possible to assess the relative roles played by these various factors. The weakening of major hurricanes as they approach the northern Gulf coast has occurred on several occasions in the past when one or more of these factors have been in place. Indeed, an unpublished study by the National Hurricane Center (NHC) reveals that, during the past 20 years, all 11 hurricanes having a central pressure less than 973 mb 12 h before landfall in the northern Gulf of Mexico weakened during these last 12 h.

There’s more about this issue too — an even lengthier, nerdier discussion, later in the report — but I won’t go into it here. If you can handle the weather-nerd stuff, though, I definitely recommend reading the whole thing (PDF).

Oh, and last but not least, the NHC gives itself a well-deserved pat on the back for its extraordinarily accurate forecasting of Katrina’s track, which established it as, apparently, the only competent government agency in America:

Average official forecast track errors in nautical miles (n mi)… for Katrina were 24… 42… 64… 96… 174… 213… and 244… for the 12, 24, 36, 48, 72, 96, and 120 h forecasts respectively. These forecast errors were considerably less than the average official Atlantic track errors for the 10-year period 1995-2004 of 42, 75, 107, 138, 202, 236, 310 for the 12, 24, 36, 48, 72, 96, and 120 h forecasts, respectively (Table 4). … The 12-48 h official forecasts during Katrina represented significant improvements of 43%, 44%, 40%, and 31%, respectively, over the corresponding 10-year averages. The relatively small errors at 12-48 hours greatly helped in the issuance of generally accurate and timely coastal watches and warnings (Table 5). The 72, 96, and 120 h official track forecast errors were still less than the long-term averages, but only by 14%, 10%, and 25%, respectively. The errors at these longer lead times can be partially attributed to the difficult forecast scenario associated with Katrina’s west-southwestward motion across the southern Florida peninsula and eastern Gulf of Mexico. …

The official track forecasts for Katrina issued within about two and a half days of landfall of the center in Louisiana were exceptionally accurate and consistent. Every official forecast that was issued beginning at 2100 UTC 26 August showed a track crossing the coast of Mississippi and/or southeastern Louisiana. The NHC does not explicitly issue forecasts for the precise location or timing of landfall. However, it is instructive to examine the forecasts for Katrina verifying at 1200 UTC 29 August, less than an hour following the initial Louisiana landfall. The official track forecasts issued 12, 24, 36, and 48 hours prior to 1200 UTC 29 August were in error by only 19, 24, 32, and 56 n mi, respectively. These errors are less than half the magnitude of the corresponding 10-year averages among all Atlantic basin forecasts. Importantly, they were all issued with a hurricane watch or warning in effect for the northern Gulf coast. Much of the credit for these very small errors must be given to the guidance provided by several dynamical models during this time frame.

Proving once again, as if it needed proving, that Rick Santorum is an idiot.

The NHC goes on to point out that the intensity forecasts were less accurate than usual, thanks to Katrina’s two rapid-intensification cycles. “Obviously, accurately forecasting the timing and magnitude of such events remains an operational challenge, in part because the available intensity guidance models generally have little or no skill in forecasting rapid intensity changes.” However, “every official forecast within about three days of landfall in Louisiana correctly anticipated that Katrina would be a major hurricane (at least Category 3) at landfall on the northern Gulf coast.”

P.S. This is scary:

The total number of fatalities known, as of this writing, to be either directly or indirectly related to Katrina is 1336, based on reports to date from state and local officials in five states: 1090 fatalities in Louisiana, 228 in Mississippi, 14 in Florida, 2 in Georgia, and 2 in Alabama. The total number of fatalities directly related to the forces of Katrina is estimated to be about 1200 spread across four states, with about 1000 of these in Louisiana, about 200 in Mississippi, 6 in Florida, and one in Georgia. Especially for Louisiana and Mississippi, the number of direct fatalities is highly uncertain and the true number might not ever be known. This uncertainty exists because complete statistics on causes of death are only available from some areas. As of this writing, bodies are still being found, many of those found have not yet been identified, and the causes of many deaths remain under investigation. More than four thousand persons are still reported missing, so it is possible the death toll could grow beyond current estimates.

One hopes, fervently, that most of those are “phantom” missing persons, along the lines of the many supposed 9/11 victims who turned out months later to be a-okay.




26 Comments on “NHC issues official Katrina report; winds in New Orleans were Cat. 1-2”

  1. Nebraska'94,'95&'97 Says:

    Excellent information Brendan!

    I remember my mother telling me back in 1987 that a category 2 hurricane would bury New Orleans under water and a category 4 or 5 would wipe the entire state out.

    I am amazed that that information was widely known way back in ‘87 and here we are in 2005 and nothing was ever done to make things better.

    My mothers other worse case scenero had all of the caskets that are in above ground; floating down the street.

  2. roswell eldridge md Says:

    hi brendan–great d d. i will alert amy goodman of democracy now. i assume cnn still follows your posts. they are a lot of work but worth it if they cover you.

    best for holidays, your wedding, 2006, and beyond.

  3. Angrier and Angrier Says:

    Two observations. First, if the current levees were designed for Category 3 and failed at a Cat 1 or 2, how can anyone trust that a Cat 5 system won’t fail with a lesser hurricane as well?

    Second, I’m no conspiracy theorist, but this is going to feed those nutty folks - especially guys like Farrakahn - who believe the government blew up the levees to open the way for white developers (because we all know how eager developers are to get their hands on below sea-level swampland in a city infested with termites, mosquitos and crime).

  4. Lynn Morrison Says:

    Brendon, can you please get in touch? I need some info on a priest that used to be at Notre Dame and is now here in the UK. This is a sincere request.

  5. bink Says:

    I was just going to say the same thing, A&A. And I think below sea-level swampland is a wonderful area to build a house. Why, I’m sitting right on top of that wonderful swampland right now and… oh… crap… sinkhole… ;-P

  6. LaundraMatt Says:

    Two necessary conditions merged to cause NOLA’s death toll: non-evacuees and levee failures. Neither condition was sufficient to kill people.

    Katrina’s moster “5″ status over the Gulf rightly focused outrage at the inadequacy of pre-evacuations and planning. But today’s information (NOLA’s Katrina was CAT 1-2) finally casts “official” doubt on Army Corps assurances that their levees would hold a “fast moving” CAT 3.

    The shoddy levees (multiple failures too large to immediately repair after a CAT 1-2 ) were solely responsible for virtually all of NOLA’s property damage and the ongoing relocation costs of hundreds of thousands of people.

    Why, amidst this historic blame game between federal and LA gov’t, has the Army Corps of Engineers escaped harsh media scrutiny and America’s wrath?

  7. Alasdair Says:

    Just a thought, but …

    How about some commentary devoted to something along the lines of …

    Now that we know there were problems with the whole Katrina situation (masterful British understatement, botox the knee muscles for the moment, please !), what are the potential positive, active, useful steps which we can take …

    1) Devise objective criteria for deciding that a levee is sufficient for Cat 3 or Cat 5 or whatever standard …

    2) Work out what it takes by way of resources to get ‘em brought up to that standard …

    3) Work out from where such resources can be taken …

    4) Get started …

    5) Start reporting/recording successes

    There is plenty of time once the above are well in progress to then have the show-trials … or, better yet, put the resources that the show trials would have used into something productive, instead …

    All in favour … ???

  8. Lojo Says:

    It may be heretical, but I really can’t condone building a city below sea level like they are now re-building, while still using a levee system.

    One significant error was all it took to downgrade the capabilities of the levees to hold a Cat 3 to a Cat 2 or 1. There are FAR too many variables and the costs are FAR too high to live this again.

    Now granted, this is what, FIRST time this has happened, so I give slack on that matter, but if this thing floods again in my lifetime, they better just rebuild the city inland.

  9. Angrier and Angrier Says:

    The French Quarter was saved. Turn the 9th Ward into a giant parking garage for the Port and tourists. Not sure what else you can do with it. The city was founded over 200 years ago when the place was at sea level. It has been slowly sinking into the Gulf ever since.

  10. Bea Says:

    Well, I think the city started out atthe French Quarter, which survived, but as the city grew, it grew into the below sea level areas that got flooded. I agree that revuilding a large metropolitan area below sea level is just dum, it will cost a ton, can be sweot away just as easily as this time, and will cost a lot of lives and suffering. Why not just let the French Quarter be, those foolish people who want to return return, knowing full well they should not expect a government bailout next time, and let the port stuff and other industry settle where it can but bear the risk and responsibility for its losses in the event of another devastaing hurracane. After all, knwoing what we now know, why use our limited resources in that area, and not help people settle safely elsewhere?

  11. B. Minich, PI Says:

    What disturbs me is the damage the Superdome took in light of this report that it was a much weaker storm than we thought. At the time, considering that we thought we had Cat 3-4 winds, it made sense that the Superdome got holes in its roof. Now, thinking it was Cat 1-2 . . . well, that’s scary. Imagine if we had a real Cat 4-5 storm hit New Orleans with all those people in the Superdome . . . frankly, I think we wouldn’t be talking about chaos in the Superdome, because everyone would be dead.

  12. Mad Max: Beyond Superdome Says:

    What disturbs me is despite the damage to the Superdome, the Saints still have a better record than the 49ers and the Texans. WTF?

  13. Patrick Says:

    Brendan,

    I won’t pretend that Santorum was in any way right in this situation, but let’s be honest about one thing: You jump at absolutely any chance to criticize him. Why? Because his anti-gay rights stances rankle you. It’s pretty clear.

  14. Brendan Says:

    Patrick,

    You’re absolutely wrong, insofar as you are implying that i wouldn’t have criticized another senator for saying what Santorum said.

    Now, admittedly, if Joe Lieberman had said it, I would have written it off to a lapse in judgment, rather than saying it proves once again that he’s an idiot. The fact that it was said by someone I don’t like to begin with certainly causes my criticism to be less nuanced.

    But, pray tell, how I am being not “be[ing] honest” about that? I don’t think I’ve ever made any attempt to hide my gay-right stance. Are you saying that, anytime I ever criticize someone I don’t like, I am obligated by intellectual honesty to cite every single reason I don’t like the person?

    Suppose Hillary Clinton said something really stupid, and you criticized her for it. Would you be lacking in “honesty” if you criticized her for said stupid statement, without mentioning that you already don’t like her for a thousand other reasons? I certainly don’t think so.

  15. Patrick Says:

    Brendan,

    I wasn’t trying to imply that you were being dishonest. By “[l]et’s be honest” I meant only to ask that we be frank. It would be a futile effort to attempt to construe your criticism of Santorum as dishonest. Clearly it’s well founded.

    My gripe (if you can even call it that), is with your choice of words. Given Santorum’s lack of expertise in meteorology, one hurricane related blunder on the Senator’s part is hardly grounds to label him an “idiot.” Such a sweeping platitude after one uninformed comment, I’m sure you would agree, is unfair. Clearly, your choice of the word “idiot” stems from something in addition to Santorum’s weather-related faux pas.

    As for the Hillary comment, again, I will reiterate that I was not suggesting that you were being dishonest. I was merely trying to point out that Santorum’s weather comment does not make him an idiot, and that your characterization is the byproduct of your bias against him. Any similar characterization of Hillary Clinton that I would make on account of one mistake would ALSO be the result of my bias against her.

    Fair enough?

  16. Patrick Says:

    An addendum…

    I was not implying that you wouldn’t have criticized another Senator for a similar comment. You probably would have…but if it were someone who supports gay rights, you probably would have characterized the person as having made a “lapse in judgment” instead of painting the individual with a broadstroke by labeling him/her an “idiot.”

  17. Brendan Says:

    I admitted that very thing above, using Lieberman as an example. However, you’re wrong to assume that the only reason I don’t like Santorum is because of gay rights. I have been generally unimpressed with him for a variety of reasons, gay rights being one of them… his ridiculous, transparently self-interested crusade against the National Weather Service (of which this latest comment was only yet another example) being another VERY BIG reason. (A private weather company that wants to diminish the NWS’s role in everyday weather forecasting is a big contributor to Santorum’s campaigns… and, lo and behold, the good senator thinks the NWS should have less of a role in everyday weather forecasting.) In that sense, it’s very clear that this was not a “faux pas.” It was part of a deliberate, cynical campaign to accomplish the wrong-headed objective of one of his corporate donors.

    I accept that you didn’t mean to imply I was being dishonest. But I’m still not quite sure what you’re point was. I don’t think I did or said anything that was worthy of criticism. Bloggers are allowed to have “biases,” aren’t we? That I have a “bias” against Santorum is hardly a secret. Indeed, my very words in this thread indicate as much: “Proving once again, as if it needed proving, that Rick Santo[r]um is an idiot.”

    So, I’m not feeling offended or anything, I just don’t understand exactly what your point was. You’re clearly correct that I criticized Santorum more harshly because this fits into a general picture I have of him as a politician not worthy of respect or admiration. But I’m entitled to that opinion, and to express it, and to say “hey look, another example of Santorum being an idiot.” You’re entitled to disagree, of course. But I don’t think it’s wrong, or the result of some unseemly “bias,” to say what I said.

  18. Sal Says:

    Folks, another Katrina update - CNN reports new developments in investigations regarding alleged euthanizing of patients at Memorial Medical in New Orleans in Katrina’s aftermath. See

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/21/katrina.hospital/index.html

  19. Nebraska'94,'95&'97 Says:

    “Suppose Hillary Clinton said something really stupid”

    That’s funny, suppose she says something stupid kinda like it was a right wing conspiracy that caused Bill to receive oral sex from that intern.

    or

    I am a New Yorker in spirit make me your Senator.

  20. Angrier and Angrier Says:

    Patrick-

    Rick Santorum is an idiot about pretty much everything. It seems to me that you are defending him precisely FOR his anti-gay stance because the guy is incapable of making an intelligent decision about anything.

  21. Patrick Says:

    Actually Angrier, Santorum’s stance against gay rights is only one reason why I support him. He is also very pro-life and opposes euthanasia and embryonic destruction of humans for research purposes. He is also fiscally conservative. I could go on all day. I’m sorry that his moral stances irk you. Maybe one day you’ll realize that these are just differences of opinions rather than issues for which particular positions make one an “idiot.” Perhaps you’re too self-righteous to see that, but I don’t know you, so I can’t really speculate.

    Brendan,

    My point, again, was that your characterization of Santorum was not the result of his weather related politicking, but rather something OTHER than the topic of your post. The incendiary comment detracted from an otherwise thorough and well-written post. It detracts by giving the impression that you merely taking a pot-shot at someone who doesn’t comport with your politics.

    Also, Santorum’s attacks against the NWS are not an indication of his consummate political competency. He could be wrong, very wrong, about the NWS and its approach to Katrina and STILL be a highly competent and intelligent politician. If you’re going to argue that Santorum can be properly labeled an “idiot” simply on account of his position on the NWS, I’m going to argue that you’re assessment is, at best, not well founded, and at worst, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing Santorum’s name in an article.

  22. Brendan Says:

    If you’re going to argue that Santorum can be properly labeled an “idiot” simply on account of his position on the NWS, I’m going to argue that you’re assessment is, at best, not well founded, and at worst, a knee-jerk reaction to seeing Santorum’s name in an article.

    I didn’t argue that. I made it quite clear that there it’s one of many reasons why I think he’s an idiot. Again: “Proving once again, as if it needed proving, that Rick Santoum is an idiot.”

    But it’s a BIG reason, and you’re minimizing it by referring to it simply as “his position on the NWS.” That’s sort of like if Pfizer gave Hillary Clinton a huge campaign donation, and suddenly she started arguing that there should be a special government program that would provide free Viagra to all seniors, and you referred to it as “her position on Viagra.” It’s much more than a position — it’s virtually prima facie evidence of a corrupt motive.

    Come to think of it, my phrasing was poor. I should have said, “Proving once again, as if it needed proving, that Rick Santorum is a corrupt idiot.”

    My point, again, was that your characterization of Santorum was not the result of his weather related politicking, but rather something OTHER than the topic of your post.

    That’s incorrect. My characterization of Santorum is not “the result of…something OTHER than the topic of your post.” The topic of my post is not the exclusive reason I characterize Santorum the way I did, but it’s a big part of the reason. Your use of the word “rather” indicates that you don’t understand this or don’t believe me.

  23. Patrick Says:

    Brendan,

    You seem intent on dancing around my words to attack an argument that I didn’t even make. I’m not saying that by “idiot” you referred only to Santorum’s NWS comments, but rather that if you didn’t disagree with him on gay rights, you’d have used a different label. That Santorum is in the wrong with his NWS argument we agree on. Whether or not this factors into your characterization of him as an “idiot” or “corrupt idiot” is really beside the point. Your word choice is problematic simply because there is plenty more that constitutes your conclusion that Santorum is an idiot. Without referencing the other points on which you disagree with the Senator or if you’re relying predominantly on one difference of opinion, your characterization is left looking childish and partisan.

    I’m not saying you don’t have grounds for disliking Santorum. I suspect that if I supported gay rights, I’d dislike him too, but I wouldn’t toss words like “idiot” around to describe him when there is only one issue being discussed. Those who don’t know you well might see it as simplistic and poorly supported namecalling of those you disagree with politically.

  24. Brendan Says:

    Your word choice is problematic simply because there is plenty more that constitutes your conclusion that Santorum is an idiot. Without referencing the other points on which you disagree with the Senator or if you’re relying predominantly on one difference of opinion, your characterization is left looking childish and partisan.

    This goes back to something I said earlier: “Are you saying that, anytime I ever criticize someone I don’t like, I am obligated by intellectual honesty to cite every single reason I don’t like the person?” Sorry, I don’t buy it.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with calling someone an idiot when I think he’s an idiot, and I am under no obligation to list all the reasons I think he’s an idiot every time I say it.

  25. Alasdair Says:

    Brendan - would it not have been quicker to list all your reasons for disliking Rick “Santoum” in the first place, thus obviating the cause of Patrick’s indignation ?

    (grin)

  26. barbawit Says:

    I’m living in New Orleans in spite of your warnings. I was here for the storm watched it from my house.
    It doesn’t matter to me you canwind up screwed by bad infrustructure and weather in a lot of places. Having seen a few hurricanes I must say that this was by far the most powerful I have experienced here. But I will stay here and live with the risk. If you think that the same thing can not have equally destructive effect on other cities you are making a mistake.


This is an archived post. Comments are closed.

To leave a comment on a newer post, please visit the homepage.


[powered by WordPress.]