Some developments regarding the anarchic state of affairs in New Orleans:
Surely by now people have heard that the regular military will be joining National Guard forces to establish law and order in the flooded city. According to CNN, there are some confusing accounts of how the military side of the relief effort is to be managed.
Army Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, head of the Pentagon’s National Guard Bureau, said an additional 4,200 military police troops would be moved into New Orleans over three days and would be under command of the governor and state officials.“This is not martial law,” Blum told the news conference, adding that the Guard members would only support local law enforcement officials.
Indeed, this seems to be supported by statements from Army Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, head of the Task Force Katrina.
Honore said the Guard troops were under command of the governors of the four states and that “rules of engagement” on how to crack down on looters and other lawbreakers would be set by the states, not the Pentagon.
Thus far, those rules of engagement have not seemed to be particularly open; when fired at, National Guard helicopters have simply left the scene. Several commenters have wondered why Guardsmen and other military personnel do not return fire. And in my own private conversations with former military officers, I can say that the majority opinion is to put down any armed resistance with commensurate force.
Meanwhile, several local officials (Mayor Nagin, IIRC) has indicated that martial law is indeed in force, and has suggested that National Guardsmen are ready and able to return fire. One might speculate that this is merely tough talk: certainly lawlessness still reigns. It’s also possible that Guardsmen are not quite so willing to fire on their own countrymen.
Personally, I think it may be that once that path has been started, it may be difficult to get off it: declaring open season on anyone who looks threatening might lead to a massacre, pure and simple, and may not, in fact, restore order in the city. People will become more inclined to flee and/or resist troops rather than cooperate.
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On a somewhat related note, the Navy is increasing its presence in the area. More amphibious ships are being sent, including a dock landing ship (the USS Whidbey Island) and a carrier: the USS Harry Truman.
Brian (Briandot)
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Categories: Hurricane Katrina
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September 2nd, 2005 at 11:27:27 am
hey, Brendan, you’re a lawyer! (or will be soon) study up on Posse Comitatus Act
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The Act embodies the traditional American principle of separating civilian and military authority and currently forbids the use of the Army and Air Force to enforce civilian laws.
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This is what the Homeland Security chief was talking about when the Feds took over the relief efforts, due to new 9/11 laws, the Feds can do stuff they normally would be legally unable to do.
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:29:41 am
^^^ to my post above, sorry Guest Blogger! I thought you were Brendan.
There have been new laws put into effect Post-9/11 and I am sure someone who is more knowledgable that me will be along to clarify why the “shoot to kill” orders are not easy to implement.
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:31:16 am
Since when did Martial Law become “declaring open season on anyone who looks threatening”.
(do you post on Democratic Underground much?)
I don’t think a more “nuanced” approach to thugs shooting at helicopters and medical supply convoy’s will accomplish much.
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:35:24 am
Surely there is some middle ground between “declaring open season on anyone who looks threatening” and “simply le[aving] the scene…when fired at.”
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:36:09 am
Apparently the DOE agrees with my stance on gasoline price increases.
From the AP:
6:39 A.M. - WASHINGTON (AP) — Lawmakers are demanding an investigation into gasoline prices after thousands of motorists called a government hotline to complain of price gouging.
The Energy Department reported more than 5,000 calls to its price gouging hotline Thursday from around the country, although officials emphasized there was no way to immediately determine how many of the allegations were valid.
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:42:31 am
Its the twits in LA - Nagin and Crew - who have no f***in clue what to do, what the laws are, how to organize, how to respond etc. Idiots run that state. Complete retard idiots.
We are looking at the Feds who are about to have to step all over local law, organizations etc to get the job done becuase corrupt incompetant fools run the place. WTF
That’s what sucks.
That and the welfare state has created a whole class of people incapable of acting on their own in any fashion. If people are walking out of NO by taking the Mississippi levee, I have to wonder why more are not.
I see children sitting in the sun while grown men sit in the shade.
Shit piled up on the street when just a little organization could get people to shit in one area? WTF
There is no self - organization. What have we done to these people.
Then I watch an interview of one of the Superdome people complaining becuase she has not had a hot meal in three days. Oh she’s getting food - MRE’s -’But they taste horrible.” WTF, STFU and be glad you are alive.
I see 200 buses under water - why were these buses not used to evacuate the poor. elderly or otherwise incapabale BEFORE the strom hit.
Nagin and crew are f***in stupid and just killed thousands. And all he does is whine about the fes not coming to help him out.
what a F*** tard. Maybe, just maybe he might have thought of going through channels, establishing post disaster responce teams and communications bases instead of goin and hanging out at a 5 star hotel.
I don’t know.
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:48:28 am
http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/3976.php
September 2nd, 2005 at 11:53:27 am
“declaring open season on anyone who looks threatening” and “simply le[aving] the scene…when fired at.”
WHO is saying that? (Besides you?)
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:08:41 pm
“declaring open season on anyone who looks threatening” and “simply le[aving] the scene…when fired at.”
WHO is saying that? (Besides you?)
Brian did, and I was responding to him, saying he is wrong. Chill.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:09:25 pm
Right now it’s at one extreme: more heavily armed National Guards are backing off from lightly armed looters. The other extreme would be the “open season” scenario. One would hope that “worst-case” scenario wouldn’t play out, but as we’ve seen human nature is showing its ugly side lately.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:11:06 pm
Surely there is a middle ground, and trained soldiers are more likely to keep their cool. But given the circumstances, the concern is legit.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:13:55 pm
It is time to establish order,
with calm and rational steps,
hopefully this will happen now
with the President coming down,
but I was sad to see him holding
yet another press conference rather
than using his energy and time and
our tax dollars that pay for his jaunting around, for actually getting things moving, rather than taking up the time of the great men and women in uniform by making them stand in line to shake his hand.
I hope that everyone gets moving. I have not posted in a while because I just have been horrified at the slow pace of the response and lack of intelligent assessement of the scale of the situation. Also there needs to be very careful control of the refugees, to avoid the spread of disease and crime to other parts of the country.
We need to help but also need to keep calm and courteous and orderly, at
all levels. And there needs to be honesty about how long it will take to restore the city of NO, if ever.
There may be no way to reasonably restore it but I doubt that anyone will have the courage to say that.
For now, I wish the very best for all the survivors and for common sense on the part of those in charge.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:18:26 pm
Haven’t you got some kind of a self-defence law ?
Some kind of “if someone harms me, I I my defend myself in a suitable way”.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:22:00 pm
Obviously, Sascha. The concept of self defense is a centuries old affirmative defense to homicide, battery, et. al.
As long as you act reasonably, you’re in the clear.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:31:00 pm
this is good,
lots of military driving in on on trucks equipped with m-16’s
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:40:34 pm
There won’t be a massacre. Historically, the national guard has been extremely reluctant to use deadly force in civil emergencies (e.g., LA riots). I don’t know what the formal rules of engagement are, but typically there is a graduated, increasing measure of force in response to whatever the situation might be.
If the military can stop or detain a looter without using force, they will. If the looter uses force against the soldier, the soldier will use force in return. If a looter uses or attempts to use deadly force, then, typically, the soldier can respond in kind.
The reality is that these troops will most likely back off potentially deadly situations, unless innocents are at risk. Sometimes situations defuse at just the threat of force and sometimes of their own accord once the person creating the situation knows there is someone out there who can and will respond.
Remember that dealing with what’s going on in New Orleans requires communications, transportation, and security. All these things take time to establish - and here it appears very little forethought went into preparing for a worst case scenario, for which the local leadership deserves the blame. Governor Blanco controls the LA Guard, in normal circumstances, and they could and should have mobilized quicker. It really looks like everyone assumed three bad days then everything would be pretty close to normal, and were caught flat footed by the scope of the disaster.
September 2nd, 2005 at 12:46:28 pm
Thanks Coach and Brad,
as I get it, the troops are there to effect positive (lowering the emotional tides) by presence and if needed by weapons.
September 2nd, 2005 at 1:01:40 pm
I would respectfully remind you that it’s not always easy to spot (or hit) one person with a weapon in a crowd of anywhere from twenty to twenty thousand. We cannot ask, or permit, a gunner to blaze away into a large number of people in hopes of hitting the few (or the one) who is armed. If a target can be found alone and hit without risking others, fine. Kill the poor SOB. Otherwise, I am very proud of the courage and the restraint these troops are showing. Indescriminate fire would make the situation much, much worse.
September 2nd, 2005 at 1:15:44 pm
Jack, fully ack.
The “indians” of all organisations are performing an extraordinary good job.
September 2nd, 2005 at 1:33:56 pm
I’ve been taking a little flack for this posting, publicly and privately. I didn’t mean to imply that martial law -> massacre, although I see how what I wrote (esp. with the “open season” comment) could be interpreted that way.
It’s just that I’m surrounded by former and current naval officers all day, and a concern that came out of it was that once it starts, it might not stop. One need only to look at Kent State or Ben Tre (?) (”we had to destroy the village in order to save it”) to understand this.
Of course, saying such things makes a lot of you instantly mark me as somehow antimilitary, which is simply not true. You can blather about my brand of politics and make unfair judgements, but what it was really about was that I was merely speculating as to why we have not been more aggressive.
September 2nd, 2005 at 1:46:12 pm
To Davis Chenault:
Why haven’t more people walked out of New Orleans?
Just look at the size of some of the victims. Can you imagine some of them walking several miles?
PS - Orders to “shoot to kill” come after the looting has mostly been done.
But I have a better plan.
These “angry young men” have been brazen enough to loot in broad daylight, ON CAMERA.
Wouldn’t it send a message to future looters if these “angry young men” were rounded up by the MP’s AFTER THE FACT - “Surprise Surprise” - we have all the evidence we need”.
Shortage of prisons? This is something the Military specializes in - building prisons in remote sites - outdoors, without air conditioning, TV, weight rooms, and hot meals - just rations.
September 2nd, 2005 at 2:01:38 pm
“…and a concern that came out of it was that once it starts, it might not stop. One need only to look at Kent State or Ben Tre (?) (”we had to destroy the village in order to save it”) to understand this.”
What a load of crap this is. (you deserve the flak)
September 2nd, 2005 at 5:21:11 pm
According to Chertoff DOHS, Posse Comitatus only applies to active duty and reserves. National Guard are in a different category and able to work alongside the police.
September 2nd, 2005 at 5:39:34 pm
Actually, under Louisiana law there’s no such thing as “martial law” — only authorization for the governor to declare a “state of emergency” that comes with the ability to enact certain kinds of rules and orders that are variously set to expire at five or thirty days (depending on the type of order) and can be overruled by the legislature. It would be unconstitutional under Gardner for the governor, parish president, or mayor to issue an official “shoot looters to kill” order.
September 3rd, 2005 at 8:03:24 pm
Shoot the TRAITORS and SPIES — not the looters.
Grain barges loaded with explosives by MOSSAD and local SAYANIM traitors were rammed into the LEVEE thus ensuring the flooding of the city. This is the reason why the response was SLOW — they had to break the LEVEE with few or no witnesses present. Local SAYANIM and MOSSAD snipers have been acting as snipers and have been murdering NEW ORLEANS police officers this past week.
Land fall at PASS CHRISTIAN at 911 millibars right through the crescent of the “crescent city”. The crescent is a symbol commonly associated with ISLAM. Dead bodies and blood flowing through the crescent — a spell was cast in New Orleans by the Lucifer worshipping Kabbalah Occultists.
Michael Brown (the FEMA official in charge of rescue efforts) was FIRED from his last job for mismanagement and allegations of corruption, according to the Boston Globe.
Michael Levy (quoted in several media sources) has been riling up people at the convention center for days and getting them to chant things against the government — typical anti american / zionist shill distracting from the ones really responsible for this.
14 year old girl raped to death (for four hours) at the convention center, according to several media sources.
7 year old boy raped to death, according to several media sources. Babies throats slits.
These zionist media shills and related whores are attempting to create a race war. ILLEGALS (gangs) vs. ALL, White people vs. ILLEGALS, Black people vs. ALL. WAKE UP PEOPLE !!! Its the ZIONISTS in the corner.
Too many coincidences — wake up you BRAINWASHED sheep / slaves — ITS THE ZIONISTS stupid. The child raping, robbing, and murdering JUDEO MASONICS / ZIONISTS are NOT religious — they hide under the guise of RELIGION to fool you. Ever heard of wolves in sheeps clothing?
Now the zion media whores are blaming the victims (mostly poor, indigent, and elderly with no means to evacuate) for not evacuating — a typical perverted zionist spin.
As they anticipated you all are needlessly mired in the minutae of Hurricane Katrina — just like 911. Learn from the past or you will be doomed to repeat it.
The ZIONISTS thrive only if they CONTROL all sides of an issue — as they ususally do.
The WHOS are the only important issue relating to 911, Katrina (who broke the LEVEES), Londo, Beslan, Madrid, and the school shooters. Its that elephant in the corner stupid — called ZIONISM.
Who owns & operates the media — that is why these SPY stories involving ISRAEL are buried or never pursued. The ZION spinning is well under way in New Orleans. They thrive on controlling ALL sides of an issue. They are pointing the finger at everyone, intentionally creating chaos. This CHAOS ensures the finger is never pointed where it belongs — at them.
1. What do the following have in common: Clinton, Condit, Mc Greevy and 4 star general Byrnes ???
2. What do the following have in common: Lewinsky, Levy, and Cippel ???
the answer to #1 is: They were all duped into a MOSSAD honey trap.
the answer to #2 is: They are all MOSSAD agents and all happen to be self identified practicers of judaism. Only 1.9% of the US population identifies themselves as practicing judasim. This is beyond coincidence. What about all the school shooters ???
DONT LET THE ZION MEDIA SHILLS / WHORES distract from the reality that the MOSSAD has been trying to deceive our nation into fighting israels enemies for some time ó including their complicity in 911 and their destruction of the LEVEE in New Orleans. PURGE THE ZION TRAITORS including the scumbags FRANKLIN, ROSEN, and WEISSMAN.
ZIONISTS are ANTI 1st amendment and ANTI 2nd amendment and they are also ANTI AMERICAN.
The #1 terrorist / spy organization in the USA continues to operate openly in Washington DC ó its called AIPAC.
Imagine this: In the middle of our ‘war on terror,’ a foreign government (Israel) has spies who have infiltrated the highest levels of the Department of Defense.
Larry Franklin, Rosen, Weissman and the AXIS of ADL, AIPAC, and ISRAELI TRAITORS / ESPIONAGE ó all indicted.
ZIONIST Douglas Feith (the architect of the IRAQ war and the boss of indicted spy Larry Franklin) resigned August 9th, 2005 and has fled the country. This story was also buried.
Who owns the MEDIA, the VOTE COUNTING MACHINES, the MILITARY, the POLITICIANS, the FEDERAL RESERVE ??? Research it to get ENLIGHTENED.
The sudden use of ìHOMELANDî instead of ìour countryî or ìour nationî ñ is word warfare. Why are we not talking about protecting our country or our nation? IÃll tell you why. We are no longer to think of the USA as a sovereign nation ñ we are to think of ourselves as having a ìhomelandî in the ZIONIST government. Ironically, “HOMELAND SECURITY” is run by a dual US-ISRAELI citizen named Michael Chertoff.
Those who think this is going to far ñ have no idea of the heartless, ruthless, gutless psycho-warfare propagandists we should be fighting.
Remove these dual citizens from critical posts in the USA government IMMEDIATELY — such as Michael Chertoff. NO MORE dual loyalties. This is a war — not pattie cakes with your playground chums. “WAR THROUGH DECEPTION”
A squad / commission should be immediately established to find the zion agents / traitors responsible for destroying the LEVEE. These types of squads for TRAITORS are commonly referred to as FIRING SQUADS.
“No one censors speech they agree with.”